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[blizzerd]

atm its like this
---
in the metalsmith shop a dwarf can: (from metals)
construct metal crossbow

in the bowyer shop a dwarf can: (from wood)
construct wooden crossbow
---

i suggest, we rearrange that a bit... more like siege ammo where you can create parts from metal or wood and assemble them at the siege shop

in the metalsmith shop a dwarf can: (from metals)
construct crossbow frame part (the butt stock/thing you hold + holds the mechanics)
construct 2 crossbow prod parts(the bow/spring/arms part, when made from metal it gives 2 per craft like gloves)

in the bowyer shop a dwarf can: (from wood)
construct crossbow frame part
construct crossbow prod part
assemble wooden crossbow (constructs a crossbow from a wooden frame and 2 of any type prod available)
assemble metal crossbow (constructs a crossbow from a metal frame and 2 of any type prod available)

for 1 crossbow, one needs 2 prod parts and 1 frame part

if the frame part used is metal, the crossbow is considered metal when used as hammer(one would bludgeon his enemy with the buttstock, just as if you would beat someone with a rifle in modern days i am presuming), if made from wood the crossbow is considered made from wood and is treated as a wooden bludgeon weapon

the point is, you always need a bowyer to assemble it, no matter what parts you want to use, but if you make the frame from metal, the dwarf can better use it as a hammer, and if the prod is made from metal you make more prods in one go (since otherwise it would be foolish to create prods from metal unless you have no wood what so ever)

i think its best the crossbow parts would not have quality tied to it but the quality would come from the assembling, or maybe both the parts hold quality and assembling adds quality im unsure about this
---

[catoblepas]

I like the idea of weapons and armor made from multiple materials. It doesn't make much sense to have a solid metal pike, spear, or pick, for example, and shields should probably be made from a combination of metal, wood, and leather. Obsidian swords are currently made from wood and obsidian in the game. A similar procedure would be nice for other weapons.

There's also the problem of having weapons made out of strange materials. Copper vows, for example. Bows should be made out of wood or horn. Crossbows prods should be made out of wood, horn, or metal, with stocks of metal or wood.

 The material the bow or prod is made out of should effect how powerful shots fired from the bow or crossbow are. A steel-limbed crossbow should have no problem outshooting a wooden one, but at the moment, it makes no difference unless the dwarf is in melee. the material of the bowstring is made from might also effect the strength of the bow. The strength of the archer would probably effect the rate of fire for the bow as well. steel crossbows/longbows would be more powerful but harder to fire. Low strength might even exclude weaker dwarves from using higher-draw bows entirely.

These are all possibilities for making the bowyer's job more important. If it is a complex, multistep procedure to assemble bows and crossbows (two items needed to make a bow, three for a crossbow), it makes them more valuable items and offsets their
advantages over melee weapons.

Personally, I think that all weapons and armor should be multistep. As the process stands right now, it is no more complex a procedure to make a sword then it is a bowl.

Something like a 'make longsword blades' job at the forge and a 'attach wooden/wire/leather/bone grip' at a the various shops would definitely increase the customization options and make each item feel more unique then just another +battleaxe+

[IT 000]

I find this idea fascinating, and I do agree with you, weapons could have a few more steps to them. You could also add individuality to the weapons. For example.

It would be nice if you could make these separate parts out of different materials. Example, an iron short sword with a gold hilt and a sapphire pommel. Overall the game would treat it like an iron weapon because that's what the blade is made of. But the swords value would be more then a a kitten skull pommel/wooden handled one. The game could say what the sword was made out of in it's description. Of course you would be able to pick what items in advance you would use.

It shouldn't be like the crossbow, where you make the parts separate then assemble them. In the case of metal weapons, everything should be made at the forge in one reaction. In fact this could reduce the clutter of the forge. Instead of having to pick 'Weapons and Ammo' then paging to iron and then scrolling to 'make short sword blade'. The forge would just have 'Make Short Sword'. When you select that a list will appear, much like when your building a wall, the first list would be what you want the blade to be made out of, it would only have metals that can be turned into weapons. Second list would contain what the hilt would be made out of, such as bone, wood, or another metal. Third page would be what the pommel should be made out of, gems, cut gems, glass, stone, skulls. They might need extra tags, but having a steel short sword with dragon scale hilt and a goblin skull pommel just sounds awesome.

[catoblepas]

I agree, a pop-up screen similar to what we get for making buildings would ideal. We already have buildings that require input from different kinds of objects (anvils, blocks, buckets, etc) And Obsidian swords are something of a precedent. I'm also pretty sure that buckets can get special materials for handles as one of the random decorations.

Having unfinished weapons cluttering up workshops and stockpiles would indeed be a chore. Perhaps this could be done via craftshops? A sword might come out finished but with a description like:

 'This is a finely crafted iron shortsword. The blade is iron, the hilt is wrapped in iron wire. The pommel is iron. Then you could decorate it using different decorating skills.

ex:

select forge:

->decorate an item (select iron sword from list)


What do you want to improve?

->Blade
->Hilt
->Pommel

(select hilt)
(select metal)

Your dwarf gets to work and produces:
 'This is a finely crafted iron shortsword. The blade is iron, the hilt is wrapped in finely-crafted gold wire. The pommel is iron.'
In this way, multiple skills would be used in it's construction, so you wouldn't have a sword made from 3 materials unrelated to weaponsmithing used in its construction and those craftsdwarves would be useful in that regard. After you do this, the option 'hilt' would be closed off if you go back to add more decorations, but the others would still be open. Some objects would have more or less 'slots' for customization available.

IMHO this would be a step in the right direction for decorating objects. Currently decorations are limited mostly by the fact that you can only have one decoration of a specific material on them at one time, but are only limited in the total number of decorations by the number of different materials you can acquire. In addition, decorations for the most part do not take into account the material or purpose of the decorated object, so we get odd things like spike-covered socks.

Thoughts?

[Waparius]

I agree, a pop-up screen similar to what we get for making buildings would ideal. We already have buildings that require input from different kinds of objects (anvils, blocks, buckets, etc) And Obsidian swords are something of a precedent. I'm also pretty sure that buckets can get special materials for handles as one of the random decorations.

The only problem I can think of is when you want to just queue up a batch of 30 crossbows for the export market or to outfit a bunch of marksdwarves on short notice. Even with "Make Crossbow Stock", "Make Crossbow Arms" and "Assemble Crossbow", that'll take three times as much to get things done.

Not that it's not doable - ballista arrows have separate arrowheads - but it is a little problematic, especially when for the most part the only weapon you can make without metal is the crossbow.

To start with it should be possible to make various wooden weapons - at the very least spears and clubs.

...
 'This is a finely crafted iron shortsword. The blade is iron, the hilt is wrapped in iron wire. The pommel is iron. Then you could decorate it using different decorating skills.
ex:
select forge:
->decorate an item (select iron sword from list)
What do you want to improve?
->Blade
->Hilt
->Pommel
(select hilt)
(select metal)
Your dwarf gets to work and produces:
 'This is a finely crafted iron shortsword. The blade is iron, the hilt is wrapped in finely-crafted gold wire. The pommel is iron.'

...

Thoughts?

While it's interesting, again, I like to have the option to just go "Decorate with Bone x30" every so often to cut down on my refuse piles.

Though really that's more of an interface issue. Ideally the whole Manager system needs to be revamped so you can get a diamond-encrusted Bed rather than yet another diamond-encrusted xYellow Sand Bagx

[catoblepas]

Yeah, having to make the components seems like a bit much. It would be better to have something that gets you a working crossbow right off the bat. IT 000 made a good suggestion with having them assemble like how we build workshops and walls etc. Perhaps the reaction for a crossbow could go something like this?

Select material for stock (wood or possibly metal)

Select material for prod (wood, horn, or metal)

The problem I see arising here would be getting the game to make the bow act like it is made out of (wood/horn/metal) when firing and act like (wood/metal) when being used in melee.

I think that crossbows at least should have multiple steps, considering how complex they are to produce.

metal bows are kinda silly though, we should defiantly be restricted to wooden ones with the exception of artifacts, and wooden clubs & spears would be nice as well.

It's odd that we have so much complexity for tissues and genetics, but our dwarves still crossdress and we have steel bows etc etc.

[Max White]

Tooting my own horn.

[sockless]

In the way that all good improvements work together in a way that is awesome. This process can be extended to things other than weapon making, like furniture making. This also works with the many suggestions where you use the manager to get your finished product the way you want, which would save a lot of trouble in making weapons. So when you are making a bunch of spears you can order to have 20 spears with iron heads and oak shafts, then they will make the heads and shafts and assemble them all for you without having to micromanage it all.

[Pilsu]

Buckets have a handle as a special decoration. That mechanic could be expanded to other items as a placeholder before fancier mechanics for crafting are implemented.

[catoblepas]

This thread seems to have shifted from being solely about crossbows to an overall of the decoration system, and construction of items in general. An overall of the decoration system would help to get rid of odd stuff like socks menacing with spikes. clothing decorations should for the most part be limited to being rimmed with dyed cloth or leather, and image panels like we have now, with options for buttons of unusual materials such as bone or gems for items such as coats. There should be a limit on how many decorations can be fitted into each item.

Items like spears, axes, and crossbows would require at least two materials to make in the first place. An axe would have a stone or metal blade and a haft of metal or wood, and a spear could have a blade of stone, bone, or metal with a shaft of wood.

Doing this would create a perfectly functional weapon, that could be upgraded with decorations via the methods we have already discussed. (different wrappings for a swords hilt, engravings on the blade, etc)

[blizzerd]

lol people took this idea and expanded quite a lot on it, i think that is a good thing :p

[Waparius]

... So when you are making a bunch of spears you can order to have 20 spears with iron heads and oak shafts, then they will make the heads and shafts and assemble them all for you without having to micromanage it all.

Now that would be an excellent thing. Perhaps have it so that you can queue up "Make Iron Spear", and either hit enter, in which case you get iron spears with any old kind of wooden shaft, or you take the Choose Materials option, and you get the option to pick the material for the spearshafts, whether it's Oak or Nether-Cap or Bronze. Or even rig it up so all your *Birchen Buckets* have gold handles and jade decorations.

[blizzerd]

... So when you are making a bunch of spears you can order to have 20 spears with iron heads and oak shafts, then they will make the heads and shafts and assemble them all for you without having to micromanage it all.

Now that would be an excellent thing. Perhaps have it so that you can queue up "Make Iron Spear", and either hit enter, in which case you get iron spears with any old kind of wooden shaft, or you take the Choose Materials option, and you get the option to pick the material for the spearshafts, whether it's Oak or Nether-Cap or Bronze. Or even rig it up so all your *Birchen Buckets* have gold handles and jade decorations.

this seems superior

the dwarfs are perfectly able to understand how to make things and what's needed, but it still adds the in depth without overly complexing

[ricree]

Though really that's more of an interface issue. Ideally the whole Manager system needs to be revamped so you can get a diamond-encrusted Bed rather than yet another diamond-encrusted xYellow Sand Bagx

I've mostly been a fan of decorate as an added designation on items, similar to melt.

[anon_outlaw]

i like crappy mass produced weapons but for a later stage fortress having custom designed weapons would be sweet.

'this is a steel sword that has a gold hilt with sapphires encrusting, a mountain goat leather grip and a lager ruby pommel.

perhaps to take it another step would be specific styles of weapons, so one particular settlement or kingdom makes all their war hammers the same way so in adventure mode or when import/export mode is set in you could identify form where a weapon was made. a weapon or armour could become more or less valuable based on how famous your design was, say your 'wolf leather grip, brass hilt, bronze battle axe' goes and beheads a titan? every weapon you make in the same style gets a bonus to value for the next so many years.