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[Emily Murkpaddled]

Actually, and while we're on the subject, increased scarcity of everything that isn't the layer stones really increases the need for easier ways to micromanage materials consumed by labors. Shortpiles and locked door workshops alongside the Stones screen is a wee bit awkward, and being able to order crafts or furniture made of a particular type of stone -- versus just 'stone' -- through the Manager screen is a much more attractive feature when you're no longer simply guaranteed to have enough microcline to meet needs via shotgun-style crafting.

[Korva]

I don't think we should get too fixated on what is or isn't realistic because we're talking about a fantasy game here, still. A game with dragons, hydras, "that place" with its freakish denizens, and randomly composed monsters that can result in fire-breathing winged blobs of salt. I don't think that the pre-19 abundance could be called unrealistic in that light. Maybe the gods blessed the world with an abundance of their gifts. *shrug*

Consistency is the better goal to aim for with fantasy, IMO. Plus, not everyone has the time or nerves to spend hours trawling x embarks in y worlds before finding a liveable site.

But I do agree with those who call for a bit of patience, and I'm sure Toady will do something about it.

[Dutchling]

Actually, and while we're on the subject, increased scarcity of everything that isn't the layer stones really increases the need for easier ways to micromanage materials consumed by labors. Shortpiles and locked door workshops alongside the Stones screen is a wee bit awkward, and being able to order crafts or furniture made of a particular type of stone -- versus just 'stone' -- through the Manager screen is a much more attractive feature when you're no longer simply guaranteed to have enough microcline to meet needs via shotgun-style crafting.

As long as the stone option (rock actually) will still be available, it would stink if my masons have to run to the other end of the fortress cause their stockpiles dont have any conglomerationstonethingrock

[Dorf3000]

At first I was like 

And then I saw the improved fixed site finder and I was like 

The superabundance of metals and other rock features that was introduced in the first 31.01 version has made some of us soft and elven.  I shouldn't be able to dig out 1000 gold ore in 3 years on a 3x3 embark.  Then again, there are still bugs that were covered up by that massive variety and density of veins, the missing embark anvils and picks etc is one of them (either site location needs to be smarter or there needs to be a magic supply of picks and anvils at year 1) and I expect they'll be fixed sooner rather than later.

Now that I've dug out a few throwaway forts/gulag mines to see how it looks down there, I'm beginning to like it.  The cleanliness is appealing.  Using the finder to ensure shallow metals or deep metals (IIRC iron is mostly a shallow ore, whereas bronze/exotic metals come from deep ores) means you can get that excitement of discovery back.  When the trade and mountainhome resources are fixed up, it'll be actually important to bother trading, and to protect caravans, because they'll really have things you need and don't have 'at home'.  The game has changed, and you'll have to come out of your comfort zone to master it again.

tl;dr: You'll get over it.

[Virodhi]

Agree with the above. The metal scarcity is taking some getting used to, but it'll be fun to eventually (once the kinks have been worked out) actually need the caravans and be motivated to protect them, rather than view them as a seasonal source of hilarity and trap-testing.

On some level, specialised fortresses make sense as outposts of your respective civilisation, rather than a bunch of dwarves just plunking down somewhere and forming what essentially amounts to a self-sufficient city state inside five years. That said, trying to keeping on top of mandates has potential to get spectacularly ugly now.

Also? The new site finder is awesome and I loves it so.

...but oh my gods I'd forgotten what DF without Therapist was like. The paaaaaaain.

[squeakyReaper]

...but oh my gods I'd forgotten what DF without Therapist was like. The paaaaaaain.

DT updated.  =D

[agatharchides]

I like it too with the caveat that caravans should actually bring a respectable amount of metal if you request it. If you combine it with a system that makes your goods loose value as you trade more of them, you could get it so you actually have to fill their requests and give them something they need in exchange rather than just hitting Make Rock Mugs/R and buying out every caravan. I think this will make things more interesting and fun, but it does need some tweaking atm.

[Mantonio]

At first I was like 

And then I saw the improved fixed site finder and I was like 

The superabundance of metals and other rock features that was introduced in the first 31.01 version has made some of us soft and elven.  I shouldn't be able to dig out 1000 gold ore in 3 years on a 3x3 embark.  Then again, there are still bugs that were covered up by that massive variety and density of veins, the missing embark anvils and picks etc is one of them (either site location needs to be smarter or there needs to be a magic supply of picks and anvils at year 1) and I expect they'll be fixed sooner rather than later.

Now that I've dug out a few throwaway forts/gulag mines to see how it looks down there, I'm beginning to like it.  The cleanliness is appealing.  Using the finder to ensure shallow metals or deep metals (IIRC iron is mostly a shallow ore, whereas bronze/exotic metals come from deep ores) means you can get that excitement of discovery back.  When the trade and mountainhome resources are fixed up, it'll be actually important to bother trading, and to protect caravans, because they'll really have things you need and don't have 'at home'.  The game has changed, and you'll have to come out of your comfort zone to master it again.

tl;dr: You'll get over it.

I think not being able to have picks or axes on embark because your civilisation doesn't have access to metals, or not having access to an anvil either from your civ or the humans, is something that shouldn't be 'gotten over', quite frankly.

[agatharchides]

Yeah, that's a quirk that needs to be ironed out. I think this has potential, but it definitely needs some tweaks.

[Keldane]

True, this is just a step in an evolving system. I don't think that entirely excuses the likelihood of winding up unable to embark with something as key as a pick. Or, perhaps more frustratingly, forced to make sacrifices on starting resources because the only pick available to you costs much more than the copper one that could have been forged had someone not decided to turn it into bronze instead.

Modding does offer some options, of course. One could create a reaction to turn a chunk of rock into a hammerstone, which could be used in lieu of a pick. Similarly, the abililty to create blunt stone weapons could partially make up for the inability to forge metal ones, should the need arise. These aren't perfect solutions, and they'd at least ease some of the issues that have been brought up so far.

As a matter of personal opinion, I'm torn on this newest update. On one hand, it's wonderful to be able to have so much stone of a uniform colour and type - it makes me feel like it's less necessary to give myself an effectively unlimited number of embark points to bring along stone when I want to build something above ground. On the other hand, metal is an integral part of the game, and if it's going to be randomly unobtainable, then it's easy to see how one would start to feel that the game is randomly unplayable. I think I'm simply going to impliment the modifications I suggested above, and see how they play out.

[agatharchides]

Modding might be a good idea to tide us over until the vanilla system gets all the odd bits worked out. I see potential here, but it is a real pain as it is. Is it possible to mod caravans to carry more metal? That's what I personally would find most fun and probably be closest to where the game is going.

[Keldane]

Modding might be a good idea to tide us over until the vanilla system gets all the odd bits worked out. I see potential here, but it is a real pain as it is. Is it possible to mod caravans to carry more metal? That's what I personally would find most fun and probably be closest to where the game is going.

As far as I know, the issue is weight. Modding metal to be lighter would only weaken it in terms of armor, if I'm not mistaken. The only alternative I can think of would be, as has been proposed previously, adding a new item that works as a reagent in a reaction that creates more metal - "Shipment of Iron", for example, which could weigh 2/3 or 3/4 as much as the iron it can be converted into, and is converted at an "Unpacking Facility" into, say, ten iron bars. I'll have to ask in the modding forum how best to impliment this; I think it'll be one of the things I add.

[Vorthon]

Modding might be a good idea to tide us over until the vanilla system gets all the odd bits worked out. I see potential here, but it is a real pain as it is. Is it possible to mod caravans to carry more metal? That's what I personally would find most fun and probably be closest to where the game is going.

As far as I know, the issue is weight. Modding metal to be lighter would only weaken it in terms of armor, if I'm not mistaken. The only alternative I can think of would be, as has been proposed previously, adding a new item that works as a reagent in a reaction that creates more metal - "Shipment of Iron", for example, which could weigh 2/3 or 3/4 as much as the iron it can be converted into, and is converted at an "Unpacking Facility" into, say, ten iron bars. I'll have to ask in the modding forum how best to impliment this; I think it'll be one of the things I add.

Nanoreplicator vermin. Stick 'em in a hive, and eventually, you get iron (or bronze, or orthoclase, or whatever.)

[The_Fool76]

Another modding solution that I think I'd find fun would be the additon of low quality ores that show up as normal stones.  You would then need to smelt a large pile of these just to get one bar.  I'm picturing a dwarven equivalent of the Copper Queen mine.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

I think not being able to have picks or axes on embark because your civilisation doesn't have access to metals, or not having access to an anvil either from your civ or the humans, is something that shouldn't be 'gotten over', quite frankly.

that doesn't happen, you always have bronze and steel, so decent weapons, anvils and armors can be brought on embark and bought from the traders