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[Painiac]

Well, webadict has counted my vote on him, so it is good anyway, because I started to seriously suspect him.

For the sake of stating my position clear:

unvote Akivara
vote SaintDraze

[Painiac]

SaintDraze, because, for lack of any better clues, you seem to be causing the most drama here.

FoS, Japa. As everyone said before, you didn't stated your arguments. It looks like bandwagoning.

Unvote.

I was, at first, just following your reasons, but now that I stop and think about it, I don't fully agree with them.

Why? State why you changed your arguments. It looks like you jumped off from him when Jim had put pressure on you. It is scummy thing to do.

While I was bandwagoning initially, when asked to explain myself, it forced me to think through my reasons for voting for him, and after further thought, I realized that some of those reasons weren't very good ones. I admit, I was hasty in my initial voting, but my stance is still firm.

State these reasons. Carefully, one after another, if you may. You talk in roundabout way. I have impression you are avoiding question here.

[webadict]

Vote Count
------------------------
lordnincompoop -
SaintDraze - Tyberix, lordnincompoop, Painiac, Akivara, Jim Groovester,
Akivara -
Japa -
Tyberix - Toaster,
supercharazad -
Painiac - SaintDraze,
Toaster -
Jim Groovester -

Not Voting - supercharazad, Japa,

Day Ends Monday 9 PM Central.

[Rose]

SaintDraze, because, for lack of any better clues, you seem to be causing the most drama here.

FoS, Japa. As everyone said before, you didn't stated your arguments. It looks like bandwagoning.

I initially was following the logic of this post here:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yeah, okay.

You're probably scum.

Unvote Japa, SaintDraze.

I'll tell you exactly why I think so, so you can work on it and improve.

You voted Supercharazad to try and provoke him into flipping out, with the full intention of pushing him to get lynched over it. So you're not really looking for scum, you're looking for lynches. This is not a townie attitude.

You changed your story by adding mafia jargon you probably don't fully understand yet to it, in the hopes that it would make you look better.

You also just now expressed regret over doing it the moment you received heat for it. Scum, especially new scum, backtrack very quickly over an issue the moment they get any resistance.

I've laid out the accusation. You should probably now attempt a reasonable explanation for your actions. You should also try to scumhunt. The only way anybody looks town in mafia is by actively and aggressively hunting for scum.

They looked, at first glance, like good reasons, and because this is the first turn, we don't have all that much to go on, so I went with it.

Unvote.

I was, at first, just following your reasons, but now that I stop and think about it, I don't fully agree with them.

Why? State why you changed your arguments. It looks like you jumped off from him when Jim had put pressure on you. It is scummy thing to do.

You voted Supercharazad to try and provoke him into flipping out, with the full intention of pushing him to get lynched over it. So you're not really looking for scum, you're looking for lynches. This is not a townie attitude.

This can be a scum attitude, or, more likely, he really does have a problem with Super over-reacting previously, and wants to get that out of the way while we're still in the beginning of the game.

You changed your story by adding mafia jargon you probably don't fully understand yet to it, in the hopes that it would make you look better.

Can't really say anything for or against this argument, really. I'm just as new and don't know the jargon either.

You also just now expressed regret over doing it the moment you received heat for it. Scum, especially new scum, backtrack very quickly over an issue the moment they get any resistance.

This works just as well for new townies that, while they know they're not scum, have no way to prove it. (I know the feeling well)

While I was bandwagoning initially, when asked to explain myself, it forced me to think through my reasons for voting for him, and after further thought, I realized that some of those reasons weren't very good ones. I admit, I was hasty in my initial voting, but my stance is still firm.

State these reasons. Carefully, one after another, if you may. You talk in roundabout way. I have impression you are avoiding question here.

I've outlines my reasons for no longer thinking that SaintDraze is scum, but I don't have a better candidate, so while he remains high on my list of suspects, I don't suspect him enough to confidently vote for him to be taken down.

[Painiac]

You are pretty much piggyriding on Jim arguments now. And try to defend SaintDraze here, saying that he is simply acting newbishly, not like scum. While SaintDraze had done extra-scum thing - giving up and saying to replace him. Townie would defend himself, and tried to prove his aligment, by scumhunting for example. It looks like you are trying to defend your scumbuddy.

[Rose]

You asked why I changed my mind. the answer is simple, I did initially piggyback on Jim's reasons, but backed off after thinking about them more. you asked why I backed off, I explained, stating why I don't fully agree with each of those reasons given. I'm not defending him, I'm simply stating my reasons for unvoting, until I have sufficient reason to vote for somebody.

[Toaster]

Super:

What do I think about it? I think it was a pretty bad way of trying to get someone lynched, without knowing or having any evidence about whether I were scum or town..

Currently, I have SaintDraze high on my scum list, but not high enough to vote...yet...

PPE: Oh right, after reading more, SaintDraze wants to quit... Umm... not particularly scummy,but still, he's leaving the minute he is targeted, that's a scumtell

So who is high enough on your list to vote?

[Asking people to clarify their suspicions is a good way to detect their motives behind them.]



Japa, same question to you.  You say:

I've outlines my reasons for no longer thinking that SaintDraze is scum, but I don't have a better candidate, so while he remains high on my list of suspects, I don't suspect him enough to confidently vote for him to be taken down.

Fair enough, but you are not pressuring anyone else.  After you move off that vote, you don't move anywhere else- no votes, no questions.  How are you going to decide who is scum if you're pushing no one?

[Early on, it's easy to lose your initial suspicion and be at a loss as to who to attack.  The easy choice here is to just take a "wait and see" approach and see what comes out, but that's not the best option- it leads to stagnation.  The better plan is to continue asking questions.  If you have even a slight question mark next to someone, get them talking!  It's the best way to confirm or clear your suspicion of them.]


Tyberix:

Tyberix:  If you were scum, what qualities would you want in your scum partner?

First of all i probably  be happy with someone who played few games more than me, aside of that i don't think good scum need any special qualities except double checking what's he's about to post,and certainly he should be active ,lurking scum even if doesn't bring suspicion on themselves can't help the scumpartner in need. What would be your strategy on D1 as scum ?

Noted on answer.

My D1 scum strategy is pretty much the same as my D1 town strategy- find people who are scummy and get them lynched.  I would assess the players and their positions to determine who is a threat and who is a scapegoat.

Unvote Tyberix.  [He answered my RV question fine, so there's no reason to keep voting him.]



Lord:  Your vote is on SaintDraze from way back in RV.  Do you still find him voteworthy or have your suspicions of him changed?


[Sometimes you'll see scum never move their initial RV vote.  It's a tell that they don't really care about their vote and just want to see someone hang.  It's fine if he truly thinks SaintDraze is scum, but I'm getting him to clarify.  Remember- town wants to find scum.  Scum just wants to hang people.]

[lordnincompoop]

And how are you planning on doing that? Do you know how to pressure? If so, why are you not doing it?

I'd rather not draw scum attention (that is, the attention of the scum) too much this early on.  But if you think I can do a better job pressuring, do you have any advice?

Anyway, I'm going to go read through what I missed and see what I can find.

Why not? As town, our job is to hunt, not to survive. If we die, will simply win with the rest.

I haven't seen you pressure, so I can't comment on that yet.

Lord:  Now how would Jim know if Japa is a cop?  IC gets no more information than a non-IC.

He wouldn't, other than via deduction. I think it's far too early for any role to pop up.

Because A spazzing noob usually ruins the day...and the days that follow if he isn't lynched...
I voted super because I wanted to see if he'd spazz out so I would kinda know what to expect...
as for asking that question, I already got a satisfactory answer...
and I Take it as a yes, If super does spazz LP's going to lynch vote him...
Unless of course someone roleclaims godfather...

Wait.... Oh shit, My bad then Book...
Annnd there goes most of my Mentionable reasons for how I scum pick people...
Shit...

Well I think false roleclaims just postpone the inevitable, True roleclaims have a tendancy to rush nights
and claiming scum is just hilariously stupid...

And jim, I don't want super to spazz, But testing super to see if he does spazz this early in the game will let me be more sure of what I am doing later in the game...

I myself see the beginning of d1 as info gathering and Then Finding scum is the main priorit for the rest of the game...

You shouldn't vote a person just to see them spazz out. The reason you vote is to pressure and hunt scum, not to poke noobs and hurt your team.

If you don't want him to "spazz", then don't force him to. This playing against your team, which is very suspicious in my eyes.

That's how I talk...Jim......................................

The way I see it, the game will go two ways, one way is that Super doesn't freak out and ruin the game for town
and the other is a downward spiral of stupid shit...If its going to happen eventually Then why not as soon as possible to see if Super has a cooldown timer for any later games I am in with him...
And It was just a Poke,because
I was Only gauging his reaction...

It certainly seems that way...
I really regret poking the bear now...

by spazzing I mean doing this,"WHY U OMGUSING ME I DIDN'T Do NOthing! !#$@!%!#@$@! U IS SCUM YAEUP YOU IS SCUMMMMM!!! ScUMM SCUMY SCum!!!!!!"

I'd lych someone like that, Even if it mean I was Lynched too... Anything to make sure I don't have to deal with that kind of shit...

Anyhow I thought I had to test Super to test how easy it would be to rile him up.
He's learning alittle.But not much apparantly... Did you see how easy he was, calling me scum because I voted him first? He should have asked why I didn't ask a question with my vote...

You're backtracking rather quickly, aren't you?

We're here to lynch scum and learn, not execute stupid people. In fact, the BM games are here to teach those stupid people.

SaintDraze, you're acting extremely suspicious, and quite frankly it's not surprising to see you on somebody's scumlist. That does not make it an OMGUS.

Okay then...
F%#!@$ this, going to focus on Kingmaker 4, at least I haven't dug myself into a hole in that game, Let someone else take my place
Replace me please

You can't just give up whenever you run into trouble. This is an awful habit, and you won't learn if you keep doing this.

No matter how deep the hole is, there's a way out. If you refuse to do so, you'll die in it even if it's only knee deep.

Lord:  Your vote is on SaintDraze from way back in RV.  Do you still find him voteworthy or have your suspicions of him changed?

Buh, sorry I've been procrastinating on this game too long. I maintain my vote, because he's just been acting worse, as you can see above.

[Tyberix]

Few more questions about powerroles:

Toaster If you would be doc and succeed in protecting someone N1 would you claim next day ? That question is bugging me because i see both good and bad sides of it.

Painiac How would you approach cop claim ?

lordincompoop How you know that SaintDraze's assault on Supercharazad is "playing against own team " ? You know their alignments ?

[SaintDraze]

Okay web has convinced me to-
Wait I caused drama?
Didn't mean to do that... I was just hoping Ottofar would just slip in and replace me, Partly nullifying my stupid ass mistake.
But web told me He would probably be lynched because of me...

I poked Super Because I'd rather him spazz out early in the game if at all... He didn't spazz out, giving me less reason to worry about him doing it...

The reason That I wanted to be replaced is that I don't want town to lose, Thus If I get replaced that means a More experienced player is town...Town would have benefitted from a More experienced player then me...

I cancel my replace request then...

Now Painiac

You are accusing someone of pig backing?
I really think the only one doing that here is you.
You accuse me of cause drama, which japa said not so long before you posted that accusation.


I don't regret poking the bear because super attacked me... because he didn't really attack me...
I regret it because It was a stupid mistake...

You are being rather aggressive accusing anyone that has a doubt of me being scum of being my scum buddy...

That won't help you at all if I wind up getting lynched...

I think that You also have yet to answer my question...

What Do you think I meant by Poke the bear when I voted super at the start?

[lordnincompoop]

lordincompoop How you know that SaintDraze's assault on Supercharazad is "playing against own team " ? You know their alignments ?

Knowing their alignments doesn't have anything to do with it. It's the intent.

SaintDraze is voting out Super not because he believes Super is scum, but because he feels Super will "spazz" later on. This is playing against his own team because he is trying to lynch (relatively) unsuspected town instead of lynching scum, which is what we're supposed to do.

Now Painiac

...

You are being rather aggressive accusing anyone that has a doubt of me being scum of being my scum buddy...

SaintDraze, stop fabricating information. Painiac's done that one, not several times.

"That won't help you at all if I wind up getting lynched..."? What is this even supposed to mean? Do I detect blackmail?

[Toaster]

Lord:  Fair enough regarding SaintDraze.


Tyberix:  Tricky question.  It'd largely depend on the game and the size of it.  Assuming this game, I'd probably not claim D2 and hope I could repeat the feat N2.  I'd try to drop a hint during the day that I thought the person was town- if I died, it'd hopefully confirm them as townie.  If the person I saved was headed for a lynch, I would claim to save them.

If D3 was LYLO and that person was still alive, I'd claim then.


Painiac:  Beware of using associative tells (Player A is scum because of their interaction with Player B!) before the person you're associating with has died and flipped alignment.  You're relying on your attack on the first player being right without knowing for sure.  You're mostly in the clear here because your vote is on your primary suspicion, but you should keep that in mind.


Supercharazad:  I reread your posts, and a couple things bug me.

SaintDraze - Why did you vote me before the game even began? Are you looking to lynch a townie? Are you scum?

This is a defensive reaction to a random vote.  Yes, you got the first RV of the game.  That's no reason to get upset.

What do I think about it? I think it was a pretty bad way of trying to get someone lynched, without knowing or having any evidence about whether I were scum or town..

Currently, I have SaintDraze high on my scum list, but not high enough to vote...yet...

PPE: Oh right, after reading more, SaintDraze wants to quit... Umm... not particularly scummy,but still, he's leaving the minute he is targeted, that's a scumtell

This doesn't really take a firm stand on the issue.  Do you think Saint is scum?  If so, why?  (In your own words)  If not, who is?


[This is a pretty standard post.  I'm responding to questions and starting an attack on a player.  I usually try to spread my focus early on, and go after multiple angles.  Once I'm really sure, I'll narrow down and go after that player, but I still keep my eye open and look at others.]

[Painiac]

Okay, un-FoS Japa. While there was some scummy things, your talk sounds good overall. Good luck on scumhunt, then.

Painiac How would you approach cop claim ?

That's good question. Good ol' scumhunt should tell me overall who is pro-town. If pro-town guy declares it, and show copcheck of some anti-town guy, then it's quite simple. I can , and will do, always scumhunt target of cop-check, and cop. Yea, it works in two ways. I can scumhunt cop, but targets of his copchecks are also good. Who is more towny overall, then that someone tells truth.

Painiac

You are accusing someone of pig backing?
I really think the only one doing that here is you.
You accuse me of cause drama, which japa said not so long before you posted that accusation.


I don't regret poking the bear because super attacked me... because he didn't really attack me...
I regret it because It was a stupid mistake...

You are being rather aggressive accusing anyone that has a doubt of me being scum of being my scum buddy...

That won't help you at all if I wind up getting lynched...

I think that You also have yet to answer my question...

What Do you think I meant by Poke the bear when I voted super at the start?

Japa stated this himself? Then he's somehow contradict himself, accusing you of drama, yet stating you are probably not scum, but newbie. I would say this to him if I would see him typing that. So, it proves that I hadn't piggyriding there.

Well I admit he didn't really attacked you. I can understand you regret that because everybody suspect you now. Sounds ok.

Scumhunt is supossed to be aggresive. Look, he conviced me, and I'm not FoS-ing him now. I'm feeling some chainsawing here to protect him instead... Well, okay, if he is scum, I can always press him at another time.

Oh, blackmail town now? That's another scumtell to collection.

Well, I answered that question already.

SaintDraze: well, I'm getting this vibe you are some sort of buddies, so it's natural, then. Something with Kingmaker? Well, you maybe want to check if he had learned anything from there.

Well, you wanted to check, if he will do something like OMGUS, or stay calm and answer.

Jim Groovester: what do you think about day shortening?

[SaintDraze]

No It's not blackmail -_-...
If I am town and I get lynched the one most supportive of my lynching is usually the next person questioned right?
well the I think out of all you voting me the most eager of all of you is painiac...

I kinda skimmed the posts...Thought I saw him accusing some one as being scum partner to me....
I'l get to reading it in detail after this post...

and did super just post a reasonable post?
:O Good job super you might not be the most likely first lynch after all =D

He isn't voting me? really?
I thought he would vote me... wonder why not...
Super
Why so reasonable and reserved? This is such a drastic change from your last two games...

[Supercharazad]

Super:

What do I think about it? I think it was a pretty bad way of trying to get someone lynched, without knowing or having any evidence about whether I were scum or town..

Currently, I have SaintDraze high on my scum list, but not high enough to vote...yet...

PPE: Oh right, after reading more, SaintDraze wants to quit... Umm... not particularly scummy,but still, he's leaving the minute he is targeted, that's a scumtell

So who is high enough on your list to vote?

[Asking people to clarify their suspicions is a good way to detect their motives behind them.]

Currently, I'm going to vote Saint the second he messes up again.


Toaster: Yes, I got the first red vote, but I voting on the very first post of the game... That's scummy. I DO believe Saint is scum, but I want to make sure before I vote.





FoS SaintDraze: SaintDraze, did you have any reason to vote me at the beginning other than to provoke me?

I am usually a reasonable and reserved person, I just got excited previously.