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[expwnent]

That does not follow. Logic still holds in fictional universes, and the principle of conservation of energy can help balance gameplay.

[Tristan Alkai]

Time for me to explain my approach to the issue. 

To start off, I should mention a book called “The Physics of Superheroes” by James Kakalios.  The main part that is relevant to the current issue is a few sentences on page 15. 

“Of course, nearly without exception, the use of superpowers themselves involves direct violations of the known laws of physics, requiring a deliberate and willful suspension of disbelief.  However, many comics needed only a single “miracle exception”--one thing you have to buy into to make the superhero plausible--and the rest that follows as the hero and villain square off would be consistent with the principles of science.” 

The caves of Earth do not support anything even remotely similar to tower-caps, let alone huge carnivores like cave crocodiles (not to mention cave dragons, jabberers, giant cave spiders, and all the rest).  From this, NW_Kohaku and I conclude that mundane chemistry, geophysics, etc. simply won't permit such a vibrant ecosystem.  If they did, Earth would have one too.  The Dwarf Fortress caverns require a "miracle exception." 

I, Kohaku, and (probably) expwnent are not willing to grant a “miracle exception” to Thermodynamics.  It must be elsewhere. 

NW_Kohaku described “xenosynthesis,” a suitable miracle exception to Biochemistry.  I settled on certain surface plants as the primary source of “xenosynthesis energy” used by these plants.  "Magic fields" as Kohaku called them, and the companion ability to interact with them, combine into a single miracle exception, which extends into both biochemistry and physics.  With magic fields established, the other weirdness can be made to follow from them. 

[Y]ou could change the magical animals to be less magical, then make realistic underground plants. I don't think amethyst men etc. really add much to the game anyway that slightly different sensical versions wouldn't.

Amethyst men (along with iron men, fire imps, and so forth) are a minor quibble.  The bronze colossus is a slightly more major quibble.  Forgotten beasts are much more bizarre, but very well-established within the game.  Then there are the clowns.  Clowns in particular are extremely magical and DO add something to the game.  I am fairly sure none of these things are going anywhere anytime soon. 

Therefore, magical creatures are an inherent part of the game. 

Yes, it really does have to be a magical source of energy, as there is no hard science way of explaining floating guts or flying heads or amethyst men or purple worm grass or the other crazy things in the deeps without magic.  It actually makes less sense to have a magical energy source that lets those magical monsters live, but the ever-more competitive world of plantlife actually doesn't have some sort of magical source of energy feeding the ecosystem.

Given the magical creatures, "it actually makes less sense" to not have some sort of magical energy source at the base of the cavern ecosystem. 

[GavJ]

There are several things happening in DF that are different than earth, that might contribute toward different ecosystems without miracles:

1) The mantle is about 1/5 of a mile down below the surface, instead of about 25 miles in a typical earth crust. And caverns extend most of the way instead of a trivial distance down. Thus, caverns have MANY HUNDREDS of times more heat proximity than earth caverns do from below. That's a lot of energy for life. Take hydrothermal vents here and there on Earth, and imagine them every 10 feet instead, nearly everywhere there's water down there, and you have plenty of energy to sustain larger animals across many world tiles of cave.

2) There's much more subterranean water flowing in DF than on earth. Cavern water refills just as fast as major surface rivers or oceans, and is infinite in source from a fortress perspective -- plus its on pretty much every tile, unlike surface water. Conclusion: The huge majority of all water on the planet is in the caves, very much unlike earth. This water can easily carry large amounts of sediments and organic material from the surface and exchange much more material with oceans than on earth.

3) The caverns are everywhere, and completely connected, thus they have an opportunity for anything on the surface to filter down and be widely available. One can easily imagine an analogous situation to oceanic "marine snow": organic material in general falling from above to sustain cavern life in part.

Amethyst men (along with iron men, fire imps, and so forth) are a minor quibble.  The bronze colossus is a slightly more major quibble.  Forgotten beasts are much more bizarre, but very well-established within the game.  Then there are the clowns.  Clowns in particular are extremely magical and DO add something to the game.  I am fairly sure none of these things are going anywhere anytime soon. 

Clowns can go ahead and be magical. They have nothing to do with justifying magic plants, because there aren't any plants in the circus.

Forgotten beasts are pretty plausible as far as I'm concerned. Only their size is an issue, really, and see #1-3. Otherwise year 1 can simply be conceived of as the first year of sentient civilization builders, and FBs are just much longer lived versions of things like dinosaurs left over from earlier in history. They don't have to be magical.

It's also quite possible that FBs and titans both evolved above ground, and simply half of them chose to go hide in the caverns when civilizations came around.

[Tristan Alkai]

What I think we have here is a difference of principles.

I like magic.  I think it's fun, and would like to see more (and more types) of it.  When I found a thread that supported that, I was willing and eager to jump on the bandwagon, to the point of "a three-year thread necro," as you pointed out.

Please correct me if I'm off-base here, but you seem to dislike magic.

Haven't read all of the replies, but I would generally be against a magic source feeding the plantlife. 

I don't think amethyst men etc. really add much to the game anyway that slightly different sensical versions wouldn't, this doesn't seem like a big sacrifice.

I like magic.  Weird magical creatures are a major part of the fun.  Cutting them out DOES "seem like a big sacrifice" to me.

That said, you do raise valid objections.  Someone else pointing out the holes in my logic is a key part of reasoned debate, so thank you.

Your three points are mostly valid, but I do have some issues with the details. 

1) Your comment about hydrothermal vents is incomplete.  On the sea floor, pressure from the weight of all that ocean prevents water from boiling.  The caverns have breathable air.  This implies at least occasional connections to the surface (especially without magical plants to renew the oxygen) so the pressure in them can't be too much above atmospheric.  At these pressures, the reaction of water with magma-heated rocks is a bit more explosive. 

Bacteria can survive hot spring temperatures.  We know that from Earth.  However, I am not sure larger creatures would be able to brave the near-boiling water to exploit them as a food source. 

2. Your comment about water flowing through the caverns is important and, as far as I know, new.  You may, however, want to look up bank filtration.  Summary: a few meters of dirt is a very good filter for almost anything, especially something that might feed the cavern ecosystem.  The places where "suitable" water can enter the cavern system are fairly limited.  The places where water with organic matter can reach all the way to cavern layer 3 without getting cleaned out on the way are even more so. 

The huge majority of all water on the planet is in the caves.

I disagree.  A lot more water than on Earth, yes, but I think "the huge majority" is still in the oceans.

Also, "exchange material with the oceans" would imply that at least some of the caverns have salt water.  I have not played nearly far enough to test this against a useful sample size.  Can someone else comment? 

Clowns can go ahead and be magical. They have nothing to do with justifying magic plants, because there aren't any plants in the circus.

Okay, good point.  Let me try again with undead.  Undead are mostly found in "evil" areas, which do have plants: Glumprong, Silver barb, and the weird grasses.  Undead themselves, along with necromancers, currently function with no energy input at all, in direct violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics. 

Undead are unlikely to go anywhere, so I would rather describe a somewhat more vague exception to biochemistry, with a supporting exceptional method of energy transfer, to give them a power source.  This avoids a violation of Thermodynamics. 

It strikes me as rather odd in general too to complain about realism in such a hardcore manner that you're calculating specific kiljoules of energy and whatever you could get from this, and then in the next breath, suggesting magical plantlife

I'm not sure this came through the first time: The key feature of a "miracle exception" is only very indirectly indicated in its title.  The key feature is that it is singular (not miracles plural, as in your response): one departure from real-world science, which can then be described, analyzed, and elaborated on.  The miracle exception means acknowledging the weirdness and trying to pull all of it into one system.  It also means being much more explicit and descriptive than "it's magic." 

Going back to undead, they will not function without some sort of physics weirdness.  I would rather bend biochemistry, because it is much less fundamental: weirdness there results in less collateral weirdness than thermodynamics would. 

[GavJ]

Please correct me if I'm off-base here, but you seem to dislike magic.

I do dislike magic, sort of. Less so just for being magic, and more so because it's a massive temptation in a game that's half simulator to simply act as a cheap crutch instead of coming up with more satisfying internal consistencies. It breaks up the game into more individual smaller subsystems that create less of a satisfyingly complex whole internally consistent system.  Perhaps more concretely, we have 3 options here being discussed:

1) ((magic cave creatures, consistent with:) (cave plants based on that same magic)) (other plants and non magical stuff)
2) (magic cave creatures) ((non magical cave plants consistent with:) (other plants and non magical stuff))
3) ((non magic cave creatures, consistent with:) (non magic cave plants, also consistent with:) (non magic other plants and stuff))

I see 3 as the most satisfying, because it creates one large complex internally consistent system, instead of two that exist in separate rulesets. It also actually reduces the number of miracles (you speak as if one, but there are already like 7 fairly unrelated miracles in game, reducing existing ones if possible without it being much less fun is ideal. Amethyst men can probably go, even if we want to keep undead, etc.)

I like magic.  Weird magical creatures are a major part of the fun.  Cutting them out DOES "seem like a big sacrifice" to me.

Let's say it is too much of a sacrifice. That leaves us with #1 and #2.

I see them as having equal merit. #1 prioritizes grouping by elevation, but #2 prioritizes grouping by plant kingdom.  Neither seems particularly more inherently logical or satisfying than the other.  Thus, even if you do want to keep magic cave creatures, I don't see a good argument for making the cave plants match their magicalness, versus keeping all plants non magic as a group. The magical cave plants do not, as suggested earlier, "actually make more sense"

The caverns have breathable air.

Well yeah, they have a whole bunch of plants filtering stuff out and exchanging the CO2 and everything.
Breathable air does not imply "outdoors" or connection to outdoors.  It only implies "balanced ecosystem."
You can go online right now and buy some sealed glass containers with no air openings that have living kelp and shrimp and stuff in them that will survive for months/years.
http://www.abundantearth.com/store/ecosphere.html

Sunlight is needed for those, but it's not difficult to imagine geothermal energy being the driver instead, especially since the biology of such is already proven on earth.

Also, we already know how often the DF caverns connect to the surface. You can have the world map show you caves - each is a one tile usually connection, and there are usually only a few in a whole world. Completely insufficient for ventilation.

Bacteria can survive hot spring temperatures.  We know that from Earth.  However, I am not sure larger creatures would be able to brave the near-boiling water to exploit them as a food source.

If the water is constantly filtering through aquifers in huge volumes (like it appears to be in game), then it might simply not have time to get boiling hot before filtering back into surface oceans and being able to cool off.

The places where "suitable" water can enter the cavern system are fairly limited.

Fair enough. But that also keeps organic matter inside from leaving with the same efficiency. Still can have a self sustaining loop of an ecosystem of any arbitrary biomass, if you just postulate a long enough timescale of pre-history to have slowly accumulated all that organic matter down there (even a few caves will tend to accumulate biomass below, just from gravity, easier to fall in a hole than to fly out of one)

would imply that at least some of the caverns have salt water.

gets filtered out just like the organic molecules. Dirt might not do this, but some minerals will. Chlorine and sodium are both heavier than water, and ions have discriminating reactions with water too, chemically.

Okay, good point.  Let me try again with undead.

Undead are a better example. But still see first section of this post: I don't see why grouping undead and evil plants as an evil cluster is more efficient or meaningful than leaving undead and grouping all plants as a cluster. Even if you can justify sun-less plants and undead by the same miracle (magic metabolism), it's no better of a solution than the other for total internal consistencies. And the lesser magic is less hand wavey.

[Manveru Taurënér]

I'm sure Toady or Threetoe talked about how the caverns were permeated by

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

demon

magic somewhere, and that's why for example the cavern people were more hostile as well as explaining the more dangerous wildlife, but I can't seem to find where :S

[expwnent]

Very interesting discussion. I continue to watch.

[Tristan Alkai]

Here is a article on respecting science.  The site, named Atomic Rockets, is written for a science fiction audience, but I think that article has advice that is relevant to the current debate. 

As a rule of thumb, the more fundamental the theory is that you just broke, the more serious and the more numerous will be the unintended consequences.

Back to undead.  At present, they operate with no food or energy source, in direct violation of Conservation of Energy.  So do amethyst men, magma men, and others.  Conservation of Energy, also known as the First Law of Thermodynamics, is a very fundamental law of physics.  As such, breaking it will have implications for all the physics statements and theories which assume it, and are built on it (EVERYTHING, or near enough as makes very little difference).  This represents a long and diverse list of "unintended consequences," which I referred to earlier with the phrase "collateral weirdness."  For this reason, I want to keep it fully intact and unmodified at all costs. 

As I am describing it, "Magic fields" involve four distinct "miracles."  These combine into a single mostly coherent system. 

1. The magic field itself, which serves as both wireless power transmission and energy storage.  It probably represents a new field within physics.
2. An energy receiver, in the form of a biochemical pathway (xenosynthesis).  In other words, a tweak within biochemistry. 
3. An energy producer and transmitter, in the form of another biochemical pathway (call it "alchemical plants" for now).  In other words, another tweak within biochemistry, closely related to the previous one. 
4. A different receiver, exploited by non-biological "creatures" such as undead, amethyst men, and blizzard men.  I'm not sure where this one lands.

Yes, magic energy does represent a significant departure from real-world physics: a method of power transmission and storage that does not follow the rules we know.  However, this description permits it to be analyzed and described by experiment, so the Scientific Method remains fully intact and functional.  "There are rules in here somewhere; we just need to figure them out."

Summary: I consider magic fields to be much less unrealistic than permitting a violation of Thermodynamics.  The consequences are intended (the xenosynthetic cavern ecology, for example) or, failing that, relatively predictable. 

Even if you can justify sun-less plants and undead by the same miracle (magic metabolism), it's no better of a solution than the other for total internal consistencies. And the lesser magic is less hand wavey.

I think magic fields ARE the "less hand wavey" solution to undead and the others.  Sun-less plants are merely a very nice bonus. 

Amethyst men can probably go, even if we want to keep undead, etc.

Why?  Amethyst men use the same basic miracle as undead, both in my system above (number 4) and in the game as it currently stands. 

there are already like 7 fairly unrelated miracles in game, reducing existing ones if possible without it being much less fun is ideal.

Can you give me a list?  It would make reducing the number a lot easier. 

On to other objections. 

Sunlight is needed for those, but it's not difficult to imagine geothermal energy being the driver instead, especially since the biology of such is already proven on earth.

Do you have a source for the biology comment?  Using heat as an energy source is not the same thing as surviving and operating at high temperatures. 

I also dispute your "not difficult to imagine geothermal energy" claim.  Heat by itself is not something that can be exploited as an energy source.  It requires a HEAT GRADIENT: heat flowing from a hot "source" to a cold "sink."  Bacteria are small, almost certainly too small to have simultaneous access to both.  Larger "plants" would still need both a source and a sink, which would probably involve tunneling through rock.  This feat is both difficult and slow.  Even if it the plant managed to avoid that issue, it would probably still need to achieve substantial length (requiring a correspondingly substantial initial investment) to obtain a usable heat flow.  What energy source is being used for these investments?

I don't see why grouping undead and evil plants as an evil cluster is more efficient or meaningful than leaving undead and grouping all plants as a cluster.

This was a reply to your comment about "no plants in the circus."  Undead, unlike clowns, have plants in the vicinity.  You were right about that cluster not being meaningful.  Now, with magic fields elaborated in more detail, they are potential candidates for miracle 3.

The places where "suitable" water can enter the cavern system are fairly limited.

Fair enough. But that also keeps organic matter inside from leaving with the same efficiency.

Organic matter leaving isn't really the point.  Organic matter is a usable energy source, but that energy will inevitably get consumed.  The atoms need to get recycled into a high-energy molecule.  You have managed to push chemosynthesis from "out of the question" to "dubious," and have made a suggestion about using heat that I am even more dubious about. 

Breathable air does not imply "outdoors" or connection to outdoors.  It only implies "balanced ecosystem."

As far as I know, chemosynthesis does not have a pathway that generates molecular oxygen.  The "thermo-synthesis" you describe seems even more unlikely to do it: generating O2 requires splitting water and/or CO2, both very stable molecules.  Photosynthesis does this by exploiting the particle nature of light; heat gradients don't offer that feature.  The oxygen needs to come from somewhere. 

[GavJ]

Sorry not much time at the moment, but quickly:

The organic material staying underground was not intended to be an energy source comment, only in this case a means by which an ecosystem can maintain its need of amino acids and carbon, etc.

Self sustaining energy could be from two sources still:
1) Chemosynthesis from hydrogen sulfide from magma sea activity and carbon from the organic load in the caverns. Not sure why that's being labeled dubious. Much higher vent density could sustain larger animals than in Earth vent communities
2) There is indeed a heat gradient -- cold water flows in from wherever all that water comes from. Presumably aquifers fed by above ground colder rainwater, which seems to be happening in DF much more vigorously than Earth. It then flows over various hot vents or hot spots near the magma seas and heats up rapidly. Even a smallish plant can sit by the hot spot and have fairly cool water and very hot water within maybe a foot of each other. I'm not sure what exactly the plant or animal version of a sterling engine is, but I'm sure there's some way to do it.

#2 type creatures could have evolved from #1 chemosynthetic bacteria energy sources without bacteria themselves needing to be able to use heat gradients.

[Oblique]

So is this pile of skeletons over yet? It's just that we have stuff to do down the mines, and every time someone says 'thermodynamics,' my water wheels start to rattle.

[Merkator]

My proposals:

• Adding aether
• Making ecosystem resembling the real life once

Aether

Why not add just third basic element to the game. In vanilla DF there are already two basic elements - namely water and magma.
Adding something like Aether would make finding energy source for every magic creature just easier.
It would function just like real-life water veins. Flowing around, stopped only by for example Iron Ores. Make magnetic fields work with aether and you can easily create nice rivers and pools of energy.
More aether - bigger probability of small or even major mutations. Necromancer Tower would grow around the Aether filled spots.
The same elves. Some real world objects should let the aether to concentrate. From visual point of view player most of the time would see just effects of the Aether. Building something like Shrine/Pyramid or other Religion/Magic oriented building enable one more screen.
One keypress and you see just the half transparent violet and pink glow. More shrines and field of observation grows.
Building some special massive objects like for example rooms filled with silver statues should concentrate aether.
Aether would become major source of otherwise magic energy. The source of aether - core of planet / small StarWars like bacteria /
Glowing Pits. Deeper you go, closer to aether you are.
When enought of this stuff would be stored in one place it could alter the nature of reality or just mutate some poor dwarf that stand too close to our machines.
Elves would use their big trees (I mean Yggdrassil like trees, far bigger than anything else with roots reaching deeply)
Dwarves would have Stonehenge like objects/ Altars / Rooms filled with sets of columns.
Humans got piles of stones / big menhirs.
Necromances got towers.

There is (I don't know if translated to english) Polish SF/Fantasy book with similar concept - 'Lord of Ice Garden (Pan Lodowego Ogrodu)'
by Grzędowicz.

Aether would have on some creatures mutagenic effects. Changing their appearance.
Good biomes have filtered/light aether field and exist in spots without iron (remember iron change flow of aether).
Bad biomes are iron reach, but the aether there is chaotic and in vastly less stable form.

In my proposal mages are just units attuned to seeing and after practice (Alchemy skill) controling flow of third elements.
 

Food chains

As far as my biologic knowledge goes chemosyntesis are not the best source of energy for any kind of bigger creatures.
The oxygen is must-have and deep in caverns the air isn't the most clean thing. Secondly cavers are lacking in another basic source of energy - sunlight.

That's way if you want well-sounding caverns biome you need to find basic source of food down there.
Muchrooms you need some kind of humus.
That mean we need much smaller and fragile life down there. Something closely resembling normal plants. I mean the lowest level of
food chain.

Now I think there is a time to come back to Aether. Plants down there can grow using aether as energy source.
Some of theme may even learn how to cumulate Aether. That's the reason for stuff like faster evolution, Plump Helmet men.

The DCSS ( for not aknowledged Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup ) have nice mutation system that involve magic contamination.

If we really want to create new biology using some kind of magic as the source, we should work on this bottom-up.

 
TL: DR:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Then don't read. Not a problem for me

 

[Manveru Taurënér]

Might be worth linking this as well for those unaware of how magic is currently planned (unless there's been a change of plans that is) to work in DF . Some off it might be slightly off topic, but don't want to have to trawl through it all and decide what's relevant or not.

Magic in Dwarf Fortress, like other elements in the game, should be tied in closely to how the overall world is put together. In the case of magic in particular, this includes the larger universe metaphysics and other planes of existence. These can include places where the dead go after they pass on, having being judged or some other process, as well as parallel universes or places that answer questions such as "what happens when we dream?". All of these places and their interconnections should be randomly created with each world generation. Once they are created, the sorts of magic that exist in the world can be generated. Example planes from the story include the Imaginary (from which telekinetic, time-slowing, and transformation powers could be drawn), Faerieland (which had its own sort of critters and associated magic, reachable through the grove), the Shadow world (adjoining the regular world at night), the Underworld (a place where some dead go, with native creatures like goblins) and the land of dreams (where the dreaming souls are, but it is also parallel to the Underworld, and possibly also the fair shore and bountiful forest that Sasmar mentioned). None of these worlds are intended to be permanent examples in every setup, but this sort of thing should be common.
In terms of the game itself, planes are not only intended to be explanations for some of the magical effects, but also places that you can go in either mode. You can already visit a simplified Underworld, but in order to be satisfying, multiple worlds will need to be generated and stored. Due to the size of the main world, the other worlds will not be as rich as the main world in terms of sites and so on, but they should make up for it in other ways. In any case, even fully parallel worlds can be handled if they have fewer Z levels than the standard world (e.g. if they are just used over the contours of the land and a few Z levels below and above). Having extra worlds freely available will also allow for visiting gods in their homes and it would allow player wizards to make their own pocket dimensions, for example. Not every world will be related, but there should be a healthy number of relationships, so that for any two planes, there could be no connection, communication-only connections, or travel connections, as well as things like the "veins and arteries" of magic in the story, etc. Interplanar travel might only be possible at certain times or at certain places. Travel might be physical, or you might travel with your soul only (much like the current ghosts), and you might form a temporary body upon arrival (as with the bogeymen in the story). This could leave you with an uninhabited body elsewhere, which could become inhabited or otherwise troubled while you are away, perhaps.

A principle idea is that you should be able to experience your own afterlife. After receiving a final strike during a desperate battle, you might find yourself in an endless meadow or you might find yourself dumped in a boiling pit after receiving a righteous verbal chastisement -- in both cases you might have contact with not just otherworldly beings but long-dead historical figures that are in your situation (as well as those recently killed in the same battle). What happens then would depend on your situation -- you might be able to reincarnate, you might be rewarded in some way, or you could retire and come back with another adventurer in an attempt to rescue yourself. Entire fortresses of dwarves could also be reunited in the afterlife after some horrible disaster, and you could swing by to chat with them. Your adventurer might also become a ghost or other undead spirit, remaining on the main world with unfinished business.

The otherworldly places won't just be inhabited by the dead in most cases. In the story, goblins, trolls and other critters live in the Underworld, bogeymen live in the shadow world, the faeries live in Faerieland, and that winged creature might live in the land of dreams (or it could be visiting from the Underworld or someplace else). For the purposes of the game, the most important thing about these residents in general will be how they relate to the main world and its inhabitants. In the story, the goblins have come forth in part from the Underworld, possibly with the help of Tremoda (at whose orders the Underworld was half-"emptied"). They have the ability to recognize the damned spirits from their home (Sasmar is afraid of this), and it seems to be either their business or pleasure to torture the evil dead. The faeries are willing to make deals with visitors (albeit with a wicked laugh!). The connection between the elves of the story and Faerieland isn't described in detail, but both the elves and the faeries are able to detect either the presence of Sasmar or the fact that Cado had visited the Underworld, which is a further interplanar connection.

Speaking of extraplanar beings, there's the matter of Armok, who in the story presumably makes the portal of creation available after a blood sacrifice. Magical powers associated to gods or other supernatural beings are much like other magic, but the methods and effects can take on the character of the being, and the granting/use of powers by others should generally occur only with the constant approval of the being in question. This might add extra requirements for the abilities themselves, or it might impose general conduct restrictions on the ability user, for instance a repeated ritual that must be performed or the taking of certain vows which must be kept. In some cases, a deity might teach a power which is not taken away even after bad conduct, and in others, the power might not be used at all, but simply asked for, with the deity sometimes obliging. It would be best if the being being asked to grant such a gift could evaluate whether each individual use of the power aligned with its sphere of influence or interests, but that becomes a difficult question in many cases.

There are various examples of magical powers in the story. For the most part, these were seen to have been learned rather than innate abilities. The wizard Sudemong had researched the secrets of the universe in ancient books and interpreted and perhaps expanded this knowledge through his work on the chalk boards and laboratory. Sasmar learned his powers from his order of monks, the largest magical organization which is referenced, and Cado learned those powers as well, and this was only possible after he understood the nature of death and evil. The dwarf Shodil learned her powers directly from a supernatural being, and she gained additional powers due to the nature of her altered body. A person with powers might not understand how they work at all, in fact, just how to make them happen (if that). Powers might be versatile enough to be used for several purposes -- at that point it is up to the game to provide reasonable access to the possibilities. There weren't examples in the story of world-wide effects, or effects that affect a large area, but these are fair to explore as well. As in the story, named "spells" (e.g. Finger of Death) are probably the exception rather than the rule, although there'd be nothing wrong with having a world on occasion that had only a few named, definite abilities, or no learnable magic at all. The world can also generate more general magical skills, which might be shared between different types of magic and methods of producing effects.

Methods, costs, limitations and side effects also need to be considered when world generation comes up with the powers that are going to be available. Story examples of this sort of thing are drawing symbols in the air, expending significant concentration, blowing dream-smoke, touching a material to be altered, the billowing pink cloud when Sudemong was banished, the corruption of Cado's hand by hate, the transformation of Shodil into a tree, etc. Some powers might be so powerful that they can only be used a few times in someone's lifetime before the side effects would render a further use of the power impossible. There were times in the story that were stressful enough that Cado struggled to remember exactly how to use his powers -- that might be harsh, but it could come up. The redirection of the touch attack back on Sasmar in the beginning would be an example of a reaction moment from the combat dev stuff coming up during a casting -- there will be a moment between the declaration of an attack and the completion of the attack which can be exploited. There was also an instance where Cado attacked the medium of the illusions (the smoke) to dispel the magic -- if effects are tied to something in the environment, this sort of thing would be automatic, and every additional mechanic like this allows for more creativity on the part of the player. The book hitting Sudemong in the head during his portal creation is more of a traditional casting disruption. In general, miscast or wrongly measured or otherwise mistaken or perturbed conditions could lead to a variety of inconveniences and disasters as well as some good luck. Having something like ingredients or specific gestures or words would also allow conscious modification and experimentation with spells, though this would likely be dangerous.

If somebody unfamiliar with a power is present when the power is being used, for instance a warrior adventurer confronting a cult leader or faerie, then that person will experience any visible/audible/etc. methods being used, and might even gain a reaction moment to do what he or she will, but the game won't spill the beans as to the nature of the effect until it happens, and you might not even know what happened afterward if there's no obvious symptoms. You might turn around a corner and see red smoke there, and having had some experience, know that a particular variety of cultist had just used a power, without knowing anything else. Withholding information should make a Dwarf Fortress player's first experience with magic properly awe-inspiring.

Side effects can be tied to the overall metaphysics/cosmology. The swollen leaky fluid finger and the plants growing from limbs and the glazed-over eyes all generally go with the category/atmosphere of the powers themselves. There was also the idea of a balance being maintained, a rule in the story's world, which is tricky to put into practice in general in a computer game, but using things like corrupting side effects and other proportional costs is straightforward enough, and something like the balanced resurrection/dream-granting effect of the priest's desperate spell is also possible. Cado surmises that Ostra's corruption could be avoided by using the illusion power with elements of truth. Ostra either didn't know because he lacked a broader perspective, or he didn't care (or perhaps even invited the change). There's no reason to assume that somebody with a power truly understands how it works, and deeper insights and interconnections between magic systems, at first unknown to the mortal world, are important for player research, etc.

There were a few wizardly associations used in the story. A master-apprentice relationship, including a failed apprentice, as well as an order of wizards (the monks), a few independent wizards, and a wizard working under a darker and more powerful being. Magical power was rare and diverse enough in the story's world that there tended to be some conflict over the acquisition of knowledge and power. There's no reason that a given world needs to have magical power be rare, but it will likely be the norm. This can be enforced in many ways, one of them being the simple difficulty of learning the skills. A world where magic is commonplace is not necessarily a bad thing, but it does raise issues during the game as to the structure of society and whether the history it generates and the further actions of people during play really make sense, since it will likely not see all the options. If the common magic is more limited (for instance, a world where there are many many practitioners of magical martial arts), then it isn't as much of a problem. If the magic makes all of the trappings of non-magical civilized life obsolete, the game would struggle to handle it right without a lot of work.

The story also had some magical objects. There is a magic staff which can produces light near magic and focus magical power. Then there is the Noculous, which is tied to the dream world and allows travel back and forth of various things (souls, dreamy material). Cado was able to pick up a magical skill by viewing Ostra using the skill and also by using the Noculous -- this sort of spontaneous learning (with or without a helper object) might be possible for certain magic and not others -- the game would need to guide you through it a bit. Finally, there are magical toys, which are either animated or alive. Temporary object-wise, there is a nightly potion mentioned, and alchemy has a long tradition in fantasy settings, although it wasn't explored in the story.

[IndigoFenix]

Well, the thing is, DF is supposed to be a fantasy world simulator.  Not a realistic world with fantastic elements, but something akin to LOTR, where 'a wizard did it' is a perfectly acceptable explanation for crazy things happening.  So I don't think we really need to worry about thermodynamics or energy sources so much as what would make a good story.

That being said, the influence of various powers shaping the world, be they light or dark or raw forces of nature, or even lovers of certain aspects of civilization, is a major component of fantasy worlds.  Very often, your Lothloriens and your Mordors exist as they do because some residing power makes them that way.

Perhaps the ecological magic system can be linked with the deity system, so that a land gains a certain sphere alignment when a particular god's presence is felt there.  Similarly, a land's alignment can be changed if the civilizations living in it begin worshiping a god there. EDIT: I see this has already been elaborated upon.

The presence of titans, who each have their own spheres, might strongly affect a land's alignment, and killing those titans might cause the land's ambient magic to fade away and its magical animals and plants to give way to their mundane counterparts, which is another popular fantasy trope.  You may slay Enal the Gilded Mountain of Wealth to save the surrounding villages from its periodic attacks, but it also means you have seen the last blooming of the Goldenberries in the land over which it presided.  The Age of Myth will be filled with magical species of all kinds, but as the ages pass and the titans are slain, the world itself will grow more and more mundane until all magical beasts are gone forever... or at least until someone cracks open the underworld and the freed demons remake the world in their image.

It is worth noting that Toady has said that he wants to phase out the Good/Evil/Savage system in favor of a sphere-based one.  Interestingly, none of the current spheres are explicitly good or evil... instead we have things like Light and Darkness, Life and Death, Blight and Plants and Animals.  So the elven forests would probably be aligned with Trees, Light, and Animals, while the haunted wastelands could be replaced with things like Disease, Death, and Darkness, but we could get more interesting combinations as well.

[GavJ]

The oxygen is must-have and deep in caverns the air isn't the most clean thing.

Earth caves, the air isn't great.
DF caves, full of plants, the air could be wonderful. Plants recycle out breathable oxygen, remember. A sufficiently large, plant-filled cave is not particularly different than the aboveground atmosphere and ecosystem.

As far as my biologic knowledge goes chemosyntesis are not the best source of energy for any kind of bigger creatures.

1) Why not? If you simply had more of them than on earth.
2) Temperature gradients are another possible source of energy, that could fuel larger organisms SEPARATE from chemosynthesis. The chemosynthesis only has to sustain slow, gradual evolution up to the size of organism that can evolve this form of energy harvesting, which should be much more plentiful in DF caves. There are theories as to how this could in fact work biologically: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermosynthesis

Note that the article explicitly mentions how it would be more likely to evolve in zero light environments.

Can you give me a list [of miracles]?  It would make reducing the number a lot easier.

 
1) Basic geology - nonsensically thin world that doesn't make any sense with our universe's geological workings, etc. (This is the miracle that already exists and that mainly allows for more chemosynthesis than on Earth, and thermal gradients, and also allows for the size of caverns and their water flow, etc.).
1.5) Slade and SMR may or may not be included with #1 (for instance SMR eats infinite amounts of things falling onto it)
2) Some animals move without any observable cause - undead, bronze collosus, etc.
3) Many organisms are immortal as in don't die of old age. FB's and goblins for instance. As well as presumably trees and things if you don't cut them down.
4) Everything about the circus
4.5) Adamantine, sort of maybe. Also might be grouped with #4.
5) Plants grow without sunlight or any other observable means of energy.
6) Ways of permanently destroying matter - Atom smashers and obsidian casting and stuff burning in magma and leaving no trace, etc. The burning is maybe fine "abstract gas is just not modeled" but not the first two.
7) TARDIS-tiles. Time/space work differently in DF. 800 dragons in 3x3x8 feet areas, yet traversing the space takes a fixed time, etc.
I may be missing others.

#3 is easy to just remove on its own, pretty much by simply adding aging to everything.
#6 could be fixed by just always mining out whatever was in obsidian, and having items remain there when the bridge is raised again (animals can be converted to corpses still). You could still have garbage removal for lag purposes by for instance, making a "garbage pile" that serves as an example of #7 thus folding two miracles into only 1. Or dumps stuff off the edge of the map or something. Or you have to boil/incinerate things to remove them, then say it's "un-modeled gas"
#5 I think can be changed to just be a consequence of #1 to fold 2 into 1 -- which is mainly what I've been posting about.
#4 could potentially be removed as a miracle if people cared enough, without affecting gameplay much. For instance, by making it more of a 4th cavern layer with its own ecosystem as well, etc. Clowns are then just somewhat sensical albeit exotic creatures, yet still present the same challenges and so on.

[IndigoFenix]

Well, if we're going to insist on the logic behind underground energy sources... has anyone given any consideration to the 'eerie glowing pits' in the underworld?  What is causing them to glow?  Does the DF world have some kind of subterranean magical sun, deep below the slade layer?  I'd say that of all the energy sources that could be sustaining underground life, that seems like the most plausible.