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[SalmonGod]

Depends what you're comparing it to. Other first world states... moderately weak.

This... and some disturbing recent trends.  For instance, there's been a sweep of healthcare legislation across the country over the last few years motivated entirely by religious stances on abortion, resulting in women losing healthcare (and I know you guys are aware of this).  This is a new thing, not a lingering old thing.  Or I guess you could say it's an old thing that has returned.

It's hard for me not to believe that fundamentalism has gained ground over the last ten years and still going.  I know that this is a temporary setback.  There just happen to be a lot of old fundamentalists in key positions of power, and I do think their super-concentrated push for one last hurrah is motivated by panic. 

Still, our separation of church and state has been stronger than it is at this moment, and we are definitely not a model of secular government in the world today.

Even in the USA, the most religious nation in the western world, has a strict separation of church and state that is being enforced better all the time.

All I'm really saying is... I felt a bitter sting from reading this sentence.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Still, our separation of church and state has been stronger than it is at this moment,

Give me an example.

[SalmonGod]

Still, our separation of church and state has been stronger than it is at this moment,

Give me an example.

For instance, there's been a sweep of healthcare legislation across the country over the last few years motivated entirely by religious stances on abortion, resulting in women losing healthcare (and I know you guys are aware of this).  This is a new thing, not a lingering old thing.  Or I guess you could say it's an old thing that has returned.

I could also throw in LGBT rights issues, where there has been back & forth rather than linear progress.  Outright criminalization of homosexuality has mostly gone away, but other forms of discrimination have gained momentum in law at the same time.  Take a look at the top two infographics.

[kaijyuu]

Those are reactionary. It's not so much that they're gaining momentum, but getting desperate and throwing everything they can in the way of marriage rights.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Here's the thing, SalmonGod: Abortion and Gay Rights are not directly involved with the separation of church and state at all. Do most of the people who are pro-life and homophobic have a religious motive? Sure. But not all of them. Hell, I was a pro-life atheist for a while. I still think abortion is an unambiguous evil, just a lesser one.

More importantly, it is indirect support, and therefore not related to the separation of church and state.

And as for gay rights...

[SalmonGod]

Those are reactionary. It's not so much that they're gaining momentum, but getting desperate and throwing everything they can in the way of marriage rights.

Which is exactly what I said, but that doesn't change the fact that there's been a whole bunch of religious law passing in the last ten years.  You can't say that the enforcement of separation of church and state is getting stronger while this is happening.

There's a cultural backdrop of the population becoming more secular.  Then there's a lingering old guard that still holds enough positions of power to see this trend and freak out.  They're putting forth a united effort to erect as many legal barriers to everything that they disagree with as they can, knowing that those will take time to dismantle after they are gone.  The result as I see it is a temporary weakening of separation of church and state enacted in law.

Here's the thing, SalmonGod: Abortion and Gay Rights are not directly involved with the separation of church and state at all. Do most of the people who are pro-life and homophobic have a religious motive? Sure. But not all of them. Hell, I was a pro-life atheist for a while. I still think abortion is an unambiguous evil, just a lesser one.

Yeah, I'm aware of this, but the vast majority of it is religiously motivated.  I'm not sure what point you're making here.

More importantly, it is indirect support, and therefore not related to the separation of church and state.

What is indirect support?... you lost me on this one.

And as for gay rights...

Once again, the culture is shifting, and the law is reacting against that cultural shift.  It's not going to last, but right now I find it to be a shameful situation.

[Helgoland]

Those are reactionary. It's not so much that they're gaining momentum, but getting desperate and throwing everything they can in the way of marriage rights.

Which is exactly what I said, but that doesn't change the fact that there's been a whole bunch of religious law passing in the last ten years.  You can't say that the enforcement of separation of church and state is getting stronger while this is happening.

There's a cultural backdrop of the population becoming more secular.  Then there's a lingering old guard that still holds enough positions of power to see this trend and freak out.  They're putting forth a united effort to erect as many legal barriers to everything that they disagree with as they can, knowing that those will take time to dismantle after they are gone.  The result as I see it is a temporary weakening of separation of church and state enacted in law.

Here's the thing, SalmonGod: Abortion and Gay Rights are not directly involved with the separation of church and state at all. Do most of the people who are pro-life and homophobic have a religious motive? Sure. But not all of them. Hell, I was a pro-life atheist for a while. I still think abortion is an unambiguous evil, just a lesser one.

Yeah, I'm aware of this, but the vast majority of it is religiously motivated.  I'm not sure what point you're making here.

More importantly, it is indirect support, and therefore not related to the separation of church and state.

What is indirect support?... you lost me on this one.

AFAIK seperation of church and state refers to not letting institutional power be exerted by religious authorities. Think of the medieval catholic church and the German emperor! Even if the government modified the laws to comply exactly with the bible, the seperation of church and state would not be touched as long as the bible is not explicitly referenced - because the religious power only exercises informal control.

(Not that I'm in favor of religiously motivated legislation; I just believe it's important to make the distinction; hope this helps.)

[Duuvian]

Time to say Fuck You to Russia

[Zangi]

So... I have a question...
Are the rebels/opposition/separatists/whatever hiding within the civilian populations?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Rebel insurgencies created through a popular uprising are, by nature, dispersed amongst noncombatant civilians.

[Guardian G.I.]

The Syrian government says that rebels take civilians hostage and use them as a living shield.
According to the rebels, the Syrian army take civilians hostage and use them as a living shield.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I imagine that both end up using civilians as living shields, but I suspect that only the Syrian army's civilians are hostages. We have no way of knowing, though.

[ChairmanPoo]

Whether the rebels are heroic freedom fighters or dirty terrorist scum is irrelevant. The point is that Bashar has gone off the far end and is massacring his own civilians, regardless of the righteousness (or lack of it thereof) of his enemies.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Pretty much. As much as I dislike the thought of empowering groups like the Muslim Brotherhood or creating more nations like Iran, the current dictators have to go.

[Helgoland]

Well, the arab countries that are currently transforming themselves into democracies aren't looking so bad - definitely better than under any of the post-colonial dictators.