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[Farseer]

I just got my post deleted and had an argument with a moderator on the Paradox Interactive forums due to me mentioning that I might torrent another copy of Europa Universalis 3 : Heir to the Throne due to being unable to play it properly on Steam.

He told me that I wasn't allowed to talk about "pirating" on their forums, otherwise I'd get banned. I informed him that it was, in fact, not pirating and was a perfectly legal method as long as I had that license (the CD key).

Here's the message he sent me:-

There will be no discussion on this. The Paradox forum has a zero-tolerance policy regarding piracy, and any mentioning of torrenting a non-legal copy is forbidden.

You have bought the game via Steam, so your license ONLY applies to the Steam game you get via YOUR Steam launcher.

So, essentially, I've not bought a license, I've bought the ability for Steam to distribute this to me as long as their service chooses to. Now, this doesn't stand up, because I've read the Steam EULA and seen nothing of the sort in it. As soon as I have that CD key, I'm basically scot free.

The way I see it, this guys argument either fails in two ways:-

• Every time we buy something, we're buying a physical copy of it, even if that physical copy is on the Steam servers / our hard drive. This means that companies aren't defended by the copyright theft laws and pirating is ALWAYS legal.
• Every time we buy something, we're buying a license. That license allows us to access the product in whatever way we like. Software companies ARE defended by copyright theft laws, but torrenting something you own a license to isn't illegal.

EULA's never hold up in the court of law, anyway.

What do you guys think of this whole ridiculous mess?

[flap]

To me, its annoying, but very easy to understand : 99% of torrenting is for piracy. They don't want that type of thing to be discussed on the forum they pay for. So there is nothing surprising that you pissed them off, even if your request is legitimate.

Now, if there is a technical problem, you should have asked directly to them, instead of asking the community to give you the solution.

Or, asked it, but not on their forum !

[Derekristow]

As far as I understand it, number two is the case.  Unless the Steam version of the game has a different EULA than any other version, his argument is probably wrong too. 
I kind of understand why the post got deleted, though, as even if it wouldn't have been piracy in this case torrents still tend to be used for less than legal purposes.  The removal makes sense as far as moderating a major forum easily and efficiently goes.

[Lord Snow]

If you have trouble playing through steam, complain at steam.

You have no right at all to torrent a copy (and share with others, license or no, b/c thats how torrents work) just because the one you bought won't operate.
Sucks for you but the legal proceed is to fix your problem with the producer/distributor, not "go into the shop again and take another box from the shelves and leave without paying".



Also: lol do you realize how terribly full of anti-piracy mechanisms bittorrent is? Good luck getting away with it.
Are you from the US? Sounds like that typical "i tried to rob this guys home but cut myself breaking his window, i can has money?" logic.

[Farseer]

If you have trouble playing through steam, complain at steam.

You have no right at all to torrent a copy (and share with others, license or no, b/c thats how torrents work) just because the one you bought won't operate.

Sucks for you but the legal proceed is to fix your problem with the producer/distributor, not "go into the shop again and take another box from the shelves and leave without paying".

Also: lol do you realize how terribly full of anti-piracy mechanisms bittorrent is? Good luck getting away with it.

You do realise you're completely wrong on all of this, right?

I have every right to torrent a copy of the game. My license is with the company themselves and not the distributor. Hence why you aren't able to go into the shops and take another box. You're making yourself another box via torrenting software using your license instead of stealing one.

lol bittorrent.

[Flaede]

Sucks for you but the legal proceed is to fix your problem with the producer/distributor, not "go into the shop again and take another box from the shelves and leave without paying".

That's a strawman argument. I don't necessarily disagree with everything you've said, but that last bit is incredibly disingenuous. It implies that the 'store' is now down one box.  It's more like having problems with the magazine you bought missing random pages, so you go and photocopy the whole thing at your library. Different laws apply, even if they still say it's illegal.

On second thought, even that's only a vague approximation. It's more like the periodical you've paid for was written in code, so you and your friends swap printouts of decoded sections and then you each assemble them into the functional product you were denied with your initial purchase - still might be illegal, but again, not like walking into the store and removing the product from their shelves.

EDIT: yes, I realize how convoluted that second one is. That is how convoluted torrents are in terms of your 'shoplifting' analogy!

[Lord Snow]

lol bittorrent.

yes, using any other torrent client will completly protect you from prosecution, go ahead, download some nice mainstream stuff.

[Farseer]

yes, using any other torrent client will completly protect you from prosecution, go ahead, download some nice mainstream stuff.

Lord Snow: Expert at Law and Networking :p

No offence, man, but nothing you're saying would even stand up in a court. EULA's have already been screwed over so many times (it's basically the "you walk into a room, read a sign and have to give away all your money" thing, which is COMPLETELY illegal) that they're indefensible now.

I kind of understand why the post got deleted, though, as even if it wouldn't have been piracy in this case torrents still tend to be used for less than legal purposes.  The removal makes sense as far as moderating a major forum easily and efficiently goes.

I had no real trouble with the removal, it was mainly the accusation of piracy I got pissed about.

[Brons]

I've had one of my posts deleted and got warned on the PI forums because I posted a link to a torrent for one of their demo's. Their official fileplanet download was extremely slow so I thought I would help the users. The reason was that any talk about torrents was illegal on the forums.

A few hours later one of the mods placed a list and torrents were no longer illegal.

Sometimes the mods at PI are overzealous and don't understand what they're doing. I'd say: go ahead and 'pirate' what you've paid for. I've done the same many times. When my Half-Life 1 CD was broken I just downloaded the game and used my own serial to play it. Technically maybe illegal but I think it's completely fair.

On the other hand: just be happy that PI doesn't use ANY copy protection.

[Spiral42]

Agreed. In a similar vein, every DVD drive I've owned has refused to play nice with SecuROM. Ergo, every time I've caved and bought a SecuROM-protected game from retail, I've had to download a nocd crack in order to play the game I legitimately bought. But I keep the game to myself, or only loan it after I've finished playing (and only once at a time, rather than dumping it on their hard drives, as I like to imagine we still live in those glory days of basic disc-check DRM, when a game was like a book and you could let your friends borrow it).

That's the thing - just because you're downloading a copy of the game from an "alternate" source doesn't mean you'll be sharing it with all your mates, right? Unless you're spiteful.

[Lord Snow]

Ok. Please link me to a trusted source which proves that buying a steam or otherwise digital copy entitles you to torrent (download and upload) game files + crack + keygen.

Having a justification and being right are different. I'm not saying i like it.

[mainiac]

Always download paradox games from gamersgate.  They have great sales from time to time and they don't suck like steam.

[Farseer]

Ok. Please link me to a trusted source which proves that buying a steam or otherwise digital copy entitles you to torrent (download and upload) game files + crack + keygen.

Having a justification and being right are different. I'm not saying i like it.

Link to something that proves it doesn't.

It's been this way since the early software developers. It's the reason piracy is considered copyright theft instead of outright theft.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

There are precious few places where talk of, or commentary on, piracy isn't brutally stomped on, unless you're just chanting "piracies are bad mmkay?" Not surprising, when you consider how many forums are festering, repressive shitholes. Thankfully, there are places that just draw the line at "don't link to it." Like here, where even moral arguments in favor of it pass without question.

lol bittorrent.

yes, using any other torrent client will completly protect you from prosecution, go ahead, download some nice mainstream stuff.

What the hell are you even talking about? No mainstream publisher is going to touch the PR clusterfuck that going after filesharers entails. Even the motherfucking RIAA, bumbling criminals they may be, have learned better. The only ones doing it now are shady outfits trying to illegally extort settlement letters by mass-suing random IPs with only the flimsiest of evidence on behalf of small or otherwise niche copyright holders, like Tranny porn producers and Uwe Boll.

[Smitehappy]

I would think that downloading a CRACKED copy of a piece of software would violate the eula of the game you bought.

*Edit*
Though I'm a Computer and Network Security major so I guess I'm taught to be better safe then sorry when it comes to downloading stuff online on the limits of legality.