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Should gamers have more rights as consumers?

Definitely.
A few, at least.
I don't care.
Not certain.
Definitely not.
Other.
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Author Topic: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?  (Read 6349 times)

Farseer

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Re: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?
« Reply #75 on: January 13, 2011, 02:14:23 pm »

EULA's never get enforced because companies know that, if they got took to court over an illegal EULA, they'd set a precedent that'd mean they, and probably every other software company, would be royally fucked.

Basically, it's a situation where companies carry on pretending that EULAs mean something and customers carry on ignoring them.

Gantolandon

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Re: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?
« Reply #76 on: January 13, 2011, 02:25:29 pm »

Usually companies try to enforce their EULAs by themselves with technical means. Their main role is preventing the user from suing the company (or sometimes getting a refund) because of ridiculous crap it saw fit to throw with the game. It's not a mean of extorting the money from the end user, as he usually has no money worth the hassle.
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Virex

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Re: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?
« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2011, 03:10:01 pm »

The main use of EULA's this far has been to ban cheaters from MMO's and on-line services anyway, which they wouldn't be able to do if the user didn't sign a binding agreement.
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Neonivek

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Re: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?
« Reply #78 on: January 13, 2011, 03:10:43 pm »

Usually companies try to enforce their EULAs by themselves with technical means. Their main role is preventing the user from suing the company (or sometimes getting a refund) because of ridiculous crap it saw fit to throw with the game. It's not a mean of extorting the money from the end user, as he usually has no money worth the hassle.

So basically they use it to convince people not to go to court?

Makes sense.

Same with stores with "No Return" policies.
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Gantolandon

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Re: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?
« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2011, 03:51:29 pm »

Quote
So basically they use it to convince people not to go to court?

That and to convince at least some of them to obey their demands. There is no reason not to make EULA as insane as possible - they lose nothing and at least some people will think that even the illegal shit is binding. It's basically a mean to save money for lawyers.
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Neonivek

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Re: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?
« Reply #80 on: January 13, 2011, 04:21:46 pm »

Quote
So basically they use it to convince people not to go to court?

That and to convince at least some of them to obey their demands. There is no reason not to make EULA as insane as possible - they lose nothing and at least some people will think that even the illegal shit is binding. It's basically a mean to save money for lawyers.

That is possibly the most sane explanation for the insane EULAs I have ever heard.
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beorn080

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Re: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?
« Reply #81 on: January 13, 2011, 07:50:30 pm »

Returning products for refunds isn't a consumer right.

Warranties, to my knowledge are, but they are generally strict and do not guarantee full refunds for most circumstances.

I can't think of any product that offers a full refund for any real length of time (like a month or a week or so).

I also don't think we have less consumer rights then in general with other products.
There have been games released that on release date have been nigh unplayable. Its become less common now with digital releases, but back in the period of about 2000-04, when CDs were basically the only way to distribute games, you'd hear about it all the time. Of course, the company claims its working as intended.

Do you have the right to return it then? Technically, you own the license, and I'm sure the license makes no mention of the game actually being playable. Imagine buying a blender that doesn't actually blend, and when you tried to return it it was claimed that it was a safety feature to prevent industry and that there was nothing wrong with it, so no return.

Personally, I think game devs should take a page out of the console book. Start setting up demo stations in game retailers like the console demo stations.
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nenjin

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Re: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?
« Reply #82 on: January 14, 2011, 12:04:17 pm »

If Kotick isn't the equivalent of Snidely Whiplash, I really don't know who is. He's made it clear the business model comes first, and that's the attitude I don't appreciate from publishers and developers. Not every multi-billion dollar publisher needs to be that greedy.
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eerr

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Re: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?
« Reply #83 on: January 14, 2011, 12:32:08 pm »

Great, We'll get google to make the videogames.
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Blank Expression

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Re: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?
« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2011, 01:28:57 pm »

If Kotick isn't the equivalent of Snidely Whiplash, I really don't know who is. He's made it clear the business model comes first, and that's the attitude I don't appreciate from publishers and developers. Not every multi-billion dollar publisher needs to be that greedy.
There isn't a big enough :rolleyes: for this. All "multi-billion dollar publishers" are precisely this way. You just don't see it because you're distracted by stupid news articles. Kotick is arguably the most misunderstood person in the games business, because the idea that there are parts of the games business that actually have to be hardass is scary and frightening to gamers who, by and large, have no idea how the corporate world works. Yes, the business model comes first for Kotick. That's his job. He's the CEO and he is not answerable to you, but rather to his shareholders. As such, Kotick's job is not to advocate for the consumer. It's the developers and the sales guys (yes, believe it or not, that's what they're there for--they can't sell you something that you won't want, so they have to manage upwards to get what you'll buy) and creative officers who advocate for the consumer. Kotick's job is to keep the shareholders happy and to give the people underneath him on the org chart the tools to succeed. It is very difficult to claim that he does not do both, given the shareholder approval ratings of Kotick (spectacular) and the

I actually find Kotick refreshing because, you know what? He does the exact same thing every other megapublisher does. Kotick is refreshing because he doesn't bullshit around. He tells people what the gaming community is going to do, the gaming community rages a bit, and then they do it anyway. In short--you earned him. Kotick push a business model that on its surface appears ugly precisely because does not engage in bullshit. Do you think EA thinks any more highly of gamers and acts any differently? He and Activision understand that, by and large, gamers have the attention span of a gnat and will buy anything that's marketed hard enough--neither aspect is limited to gamers, but rather people in general--and he understands that they will put up with a lot of shit for their next hit of Call of Duty and will buy that schweet DLC rifle skin for $0.99 even though it does nothing at all.

So Activision leverages that, and you complain. Nobody else cares because they're all busy playing Black Ops. Maybe you (and I, for that matter, I fucking loathe Black Ops and Guitar Hero and similar derp) are just wrong. But it's striking that the real reason people complain about Bobby Kotick isn't because he's "greedy," because they all are. It's that he has the temerity to tell the truth about the gaming community. It's an uncomfortable truth, and gets gamers all butthurt...and then they validate everything he says with their actions.



Don't get me wrong, I hear what you're saying, but let's not pretend that Activision acts in a vacuum. They only get away with what you let them get away with. You, as gamers, not you as "oh I don't buy Activision games," let it happen. If Activision's antics become untenable, it's up to the gaming public to communicate the change they want to see in the market. (And, as an aside, piracy does nothing to further this except give them additional ammunition for screwing you harder.)
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Gantolandon

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Re: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?
« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2011, 01:59:31 pm »

Quote
Don't get me wrong, I hear what you're saying, but let's not pretend that Activision acts in a vacuum. They only get away with what you let them get away with. You, as gamers, not you as "oh I don't buy Activision games," let it happen. If Activision's antics become untenable, it's up to the gaming public to communicate the change they want to see in the market. (And, as an aside, piracy does nothing to further this except give them additional ammunition for screwing you harder.)

This conclusion is pointless. Not that it is totally wrong, it's just a convenient excuse to do nothing. You can't discuss with the gamers community, or persuade it in any way, because communities work completely different than singular human beings. You may convince several people in this forums but most of the people who could change something won't even hear your message. And even if they did, it won't probably affect them more than several advertisements and viral marketing campaign. So what's the point in blaming it?

In fact, you don't even communicate "Do something with it". The gamers can eventually piss off with the developers' bullshit, but to do this, they must at least acknowledge they were wronged. What's you're trying to tell is basically: "You're too stupid and inept to do anything, deal with it". It's counterproductive.

And I think you have an entirely wrong impression on piracy. It is the only gamers' activity the game publishers see and fear. They can neither stop it, nor ignore it. Of course, it's not even a form of protest per se. It is only a flaw of this particular business model. But, thanks to its existence, any bullshit thrown by the industry ultimately works against them. It is giving them ammunition, but they are going to shoot the entire clip in their foot anyway.
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Argembarger

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Re: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?
« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2011, 02:09:37 pm »

More or less skimmed the thread, so I don't know if this has been brought up, but

I think the entire concept of "required patches" is bullshit.

To require internet access in order to play a game you've already bought, or to require you to get a copy of the patch through other means, well, it's kind of messed up. Doubly so for console games where you must pay money to get your console to access the Internet, like the X-Box 360. Then, in order to play the game that is unplayable upon purchase, you must

-Have Internet Access
-Subscribe to X-Box Live

Well, what if you don't have internet access? You are now royally fucked, and down 50 bucks.

Rushing games out to meet arbitrary deadlines, and releasing required patches after the fact just to make the game playable, is complete shit.

I don't buy games on their release date anymore. I wait a couple of weeks. If I hear that the game requires a patch in order to play it, I don't buy it. I have internet access, and could get the patch. But it's the fucking principle of the thing; I am not going to reward bullshit, should-be-illegal behavior with my consumption.

EDIT: This does not hold for minor bugfix patches... while less than ideal, minor bugfixes, tweaks or rebalancing is fine as long as the game is playable in its released state; I'm talking about the ridiculous game-breaking monstrosities we keep seeing more and more often these days.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 02:12:27 pm by Argembarger »
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Eugenitor

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Re: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?
« Reply #87 on: January 14, 2011, 02:40:07 pm »

If Kotick isn't the equivalent of Snidely Whiplash, I really don't know who is. He's made it clear the business model comes first, and that's the attitude I don't appreciate from publishers and developers. Not every multi-billion dollar publisher needs to be that greedy.



The guy's openly said he wants to create a culture of skepticism, pessimism, and fear. Who does he think he is, David Miscavige of Scientology? What happens when his top designers get headhunted by, oh, Valve? What happens if he pisses one of them off bad enough to leak the full fucking source code to the Pirate Bay or something? Since when did openly hating your customers and your employees become a wise leadership decision?
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Blank Expression

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Re: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?
« Reply #88 on: January 14, 2011, 02:59:38 pm »

Quote
Don't get me wrong, I hear what you're saying, but let's not pretend that Activision acts in a vacuum. They only get away with what you let them get away with. You, as gamers, not you as "oh I don't buy Activision games," let it happen. If Activision's antics become untenable, it's up to the gaming public to communicate the change they want to see in the market. (And, as an aside, piracy does nothing to further this except give them additional ammunition for screwing you harder.)

This conclusion is pointless. Not that it is totally wrong, it's just a convenient excuse to do nothing. You can't discuss with the gamers community, or persuade it in any way, because communities work completely different than singular human beings. You may convince several people in this forums but most of the people who could change something won't even hear your message. And even if they did, it won't probably affect them more than several advertisements and viral marketing campaign. So what's the point in blaming it?
The point in blaming the gaming community is that they are the ones at fault! The gaming public buys the shit. If they did not, it would not be made. Activision et al. provide what the customer wants, and do so in a way that frankly I'd say is of better quality than is strictly necessary--most consumers are not exactly picky about their gaming titles if they have the right label on it. You're complaining about them serving their customers what their customers want. This complaint is even more hollow given the astonishingly awesome rise of independent gaming--interesting, low-cost titles that aren't affiliated with Activision, EA, etc. in any way. You have choices. Theirs do not affect you.

But if you want it to change, because you think that Evil Activision is so bad, then your only option is to change the market. Is it hard? Sure. Things that are worth doing often are. But "it's too hard and we'll fail anyway" is the real excuse to do nothing. Don't try to throw that back on me.

Something tells me most gamers who fancy themselves as having a clue will prefer to just rail against Bobby Kotick. He's a bad man, after all. :(


The question you must answer, and I don't think you can do so rationally but you're welcome to try, is this: Why should Activision make what their customers don't want?


Quote
And I think you have an entirely wrong impression on piracy. It is the only gamers' activity the game publishers see and fear. They can neither stop it, nor ignore it. Of course, it's not even a form of protest per se. It is only a flaw of this particular business model. But, thanks to its existence, any bullshit thrown by the industry ultimately works against them. It is giving them ammunition, but they are going to shoot the entire clip in their foot anyway.
Not really. All piracy does, in the end, is encourage them to go to even greater extremes. Piracy communicates a message to publishers: "hey, you're making a great product that we want, we're just dickheads who just don't want to pay for it." It is a perfectly rational decision, given that perception (whether or not it was intended--it is the inference, not the implication, that matters), to attempt to make you pay for it, then, through technological means if necessary.

Your claim that it "works against them" is not well-grounded in reality. The publishers are winning, because they are transitioning to gaming systems and ecosystems that are orders of magnitude more difficult to pirate software on. Consoles--you can crack a 360, but I hope you enjoy your LIVE ban. Smartphones--the number of people willing to put up with instability from jailbreaked phones is pretty marginal, and other than that, for the most part you're getting your applications from signed, established sources. Always-online games--most people, and most casual pirates, aren't willing to spend time fucking about to get it to work, and at least some will buy it, so it's a win for the publisher. Something does not have to be piracy-proof; it just has to be piracy-resistant until most people give up and buy it. Do you realize how many companies have fled the PC gaming market? Only a few are coming back recently (Capcom, for example, has long developed their titles for the PC first and then ported to consoles--they only started releasing those titles on the PC due to effective DRM systems like Steam.) Piracy is a major driver toward the consoles, where it's possible but, comparatively, extremely hard to pirate.


Frankly, all this slap-fighting between pirates and publishers just pisses me off. I get screwed coming and going, because while I'm a gamer who gets screwed by publishers' often idiotic attempts to curtail piracy, I'm one of those unfortunate people who actually creates IP and makes a living off of it--which, to the short-sighted and largely dumb pirates, makes me something of the enemy.


And, sitting in the middle, something really unfortunate but very true is apparent: at some point, y'all are going to have to come to peace with the uncomfortable realization that you, as a gaming community, brought a great deal of publisher dickishness down upon yourselves. You are nowhere near blameless. Foisting it all off on The Bad Corporations is the height of disingenuousness.



The guy's openly said he wants to create a culture of skepticism, pessimism, and fear. Who does he think he is, David Miscavige of Scientology? What happens when his top designers get headhunted by, oh, Valve? What happens if he pisses one of them off bad enough to leak the full fucking source code to the Pirate Bay or something? Since when did openly hating your customers and your employees become a wise leadership decision?
Pull your brain out of neutral and think rationally instead of screaming about Scientology and other hyperbolic derp. If Activision's culture is so bad that development companies can poach their talent, then the market works, Activision will fail, and you can stop whining about that evil Bobby Kotick. You won't, because then you have nothing else to whine about, but you could.

And, FWIW, I actually know a couple of people who work at Activision studios, and the sense I get from them is that he talks up a big game for the shareholders. They enjoy their jobs. But they don't work at IW or the like--they work for non-acquisitions without the same sort of "founder" issues IW had, which may be an entirely different deal (I don't know the culture first-hand, as I don't work there). I get no sense from these people, who are both technically sharp and socially perceptive, that anyone in management "hates" their employees. I also get no sense from Kotick that he "hates" his customers. I do get the sense that he understands them very well and isn't impressed. And you know what? Even as a gamer, I'm not impressed with his customers either. They are, by and large, lowest-common-denominator consumers. Activision targets them effectively, and the only thing about him that gets your knickers in a twist is that Kotick doesn't dissemble about it like the rest of the big publishers.

I mean, for the love of god, do you really think John Riccitiello thinks any more highly of his customers than Kotick does? Kotick's a loudmouth, yes. He's also right, and his company is fantastically successful.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 03:08:14 pm by Blank Expression »
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Eugenitor

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Re: Should Gamers Have More Rights As Consumers?
« Reply #89 on: January 14, 2011, 03:05:33 pm »

Quote from: Blank Expression
, I'm one of those unfortunate people who actually creates IP and makes a living off of it

Please tell us for which company, so we know who to avoid.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 03:15:27 pm by Eugenitor »
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