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[Kagus]

Heh, funny.  I just assumed the IRC channel was even worse than the forum.  I might have tried visiting it once, can't really remember.  I've never had much experience with IRC before, so I was just trying to keep all limbs inside the vehicle while getting through it.

But really, I can't imagine that this is a 'segregation' deal, or that people are purposefully renouncing the boards for any one reason or another.  It's just that, for the reasons listed, these people simply cannot be bothered to visit any more.


The subject of moderators being singled out and put on pedestals or down in holes is indeed something that needs to be considered, should there ever be a time when there's ever a recruitment spree.

One thing that occurred to me was the idea of having anonymous moderation.  Individuals would be selected as trustworthy enough to wield the power, and then they'd serve to put in a stern, respected word now and again, without the possibility for either pride or discredit as moderator actions would not be associated with their own personal profiles.  The brothers would be able to keep track of who was moderating what, but the plebs wouldn't.

Aside from that though, some of the ideas posted regarding the appointment of moderators have basically been some version or another of 'the Report to Moderator Button, but for fewer people'.

[Sowelu]

The main takeaway thing I got from Toady One's post was this specific nugget:

I don't mind some silliness, but spam and image posts lead to porn, etc.

I was honestly pretty shocked and kind of offended at how fast my short-lived pony thread went there.  I mean sure I banter about that kind of stuff with close friends but I sure don't do it on forums...so, uh, I guess I now have first-hand experience with precisely this phenomenon.

So as far as the silliness is concerned, it's like there's some critical-mass type of thing.  You have all these little silly elements, and picture posts, but if you get too much of it and compress it too tightly then it suddenly explodes into something completely different.  Much like a nuclear reactor, you need those control rods to keep the density from getting too high.  Low density silliness is good?  I guess?

Also, porn threads _{and for the love of god, MLP sexuality} just...no.  Not here.  I have no idea why silliness and pic-spam tend to lead to it, but the fact is that somehow they do.  If we slow down that particular reaction, identify where that phase-change occurs and prevent it, then it seems to me that things are more cool.  (At least where silliness is concerned.)

And given that Toady says it really takes very little time to moderate, I'm going to be more liberal with that report button whenever bad stuff comes up.  I guess I feel like it's okay to report minor things, and have faith that the Adams brothers will deal with them AS minor things (such as in PMs or something) now.

...Still think that the sticky could use more specific examples of what to avoid.

[Grakelin]

I'm seeing a lot of people who mainly frequent IRC on the 'the forums are degraded' side of the fence, and a lot of people who frequent the forums on the 'the forums are fine' side of the fence. This indicates to me that the problem isn't one that people who are on the forum thinks actually exists. I think it's a matter of like-minded people in a separate community deciding they don't like this one.

Threads like these are the beginning of the end for a forum's "Golden Age". In fact, this probably officially ended it for B12forums. Now that somebody has said we're stagnating, it will forever more be etched into the community's minds. We can't even get the quick fix of overhauling the way the lower forums work. That option has been extended.

I think the problem here is that Toady has been distant from the community long enough now that he just doesn't get any of us any more. He's not in on the in-jokes. He hasn't made any friends down here. He just has to act as the 'impartial judge'. But as the post he placed in both the 'Happy' thread and the 'Sad' thread (the two largest threads on this forum) indicate, his ability to impartially judge us has now been marred by what I can only see as a contempt for the regulars here. I don't understand why this is, and I would hope that I'm wrong, but this is just the vibe I am getting from this. He doesn't like us anymore. He sees a group of us joke with each other, even in the threads we have designated for this, and he gets upset.

Toady: You need to be clear. Your detached presence worked out great when you weren't fuming at the forumgoers here, but it's not working out when you are at the core of a situation. If you really feel that your feathers have been ruffled and you aren't getting your way on your own forum, you need to say so LOUDLY and PUBLICALLY. We're going to miss it if you bury your opinion in a sanction post in the middle of a thread. If you don't let the community know exactly where they stand, you have nobody to blame but yourself if we continue to upset you. Clearly, everybody here appreciates you, they're willing to work towards the same goals as you. You have an advantage that many administrators of popular forums don't have - public support. There are no chatroom discussions about how terrible you are. Nobody is PMing back and forth wondering what your real motivations are. You are probably the single most influential forum administrator on the internet right now. Don't waste the asset by being vague about your views on the direction this community is going.


I, for one, don't think it's stagnating at all. I think a lot of people are really enjoying one another's presence, and some people have rivalries between them. I don't think it's a good idea to be actively punishing the former.

[Rose]

what part of his post showed contempt?

he simply said that things were getting a little out of hand and that we should tone it down a little.

[Grakelin]

Maybe it's the fact that the 'problem posts' get deleted, but when I see a post like the one Toady placed in the Happy and Sad threads, their wording and location gives me the feeling that he finds us stifling.

[Retro]

I'm seeing a lot of people who mainly frequent IRC on the 'the forums are degraded' side of the fence, and a lot of people who frequent the forums on the 'the forums are fine' side of the fence. This indicates to me that the problem isn't one that people who are on the forum thinks actually exists. I think it's a matter of like-minded people in a separate community deciding they don't like this one.

Keep in mind that most of the IRC regulars who are sick of the way the forums have been going were once forum regulars as well who no longer see any real value in coming back.

[Azzuro]

Wow man. I went away for a day and several new threads spring into existence - including the pony thread on the other page. Anyway, I just read through this thread, and even though Toady has stated his opinion already, I still want to add a few points of my own.

My views:

Firstly, earlier in the thread, several people were advocating for a Moderator/Ban Log, similar to the one on the MSPA forums, which was brought up as an example. While a mod log would indeed clear up several disputes regarding mod actions such as muting and banning, I don't think many of you have considered the actual amount of effort that would have to be put in to support such an endeavor. Some people were talking about finding out the context behind a reported post in a large/fast-moving thread, and in order for a mod log to be even remotely helpful, they would have to find and quote all the relevant posts that led up to the offensive one. In effect, a mod log would actually increase moderator workload, and for not much benefit besides occasional interested posters going to find out what happened to deleted threads. I am therefore against the idea of maintaining a specific thread for this purpose.

Also, in regards to OPs being given mod powers within their threads, I also find that to be a supremely bad idea. It would lead to OPs deleting posts that disagree at best, turning the thread into an echo chamber for the OP's views only. At worst, this could lead to outright hostility and the forum being divided - two or three threads could be made on the same topic, each only allowing the OP's views and no dissenting ones. As a compromise, how about OPs being given the power to "flag" posts with little to no constructive discussion? The OP wouldn't be allowed to delete or even hide them - but others could see for themselves whether the OP's judgment was appropriate under the circumstances.

With regards to the whole FG&R debate, there's a lot to be said on both sides. On one hand, pruning sections does do good for the community - VN's destruction was a wake-up call to all involved to get their act together. On the other hand, outright condemning sections doesn't do much in the long run - the section regulars will just drift over to another board and co-opt it for their purposes. As an example, if the whole of Finally was deleted right now, about 95% of us will move up to DF or the Other Projects, and continue joking around, albeit at reduced pace. Eventually though, we'll turn the others into another General Discussion, and the cycle will continue. That's what I think is happening now - we have newer and older forumnites forgetting that the whole VN lol so randum thing was deleted for a reason. I can't really think of a way to break this cycle without heavy use of bans/mutes/deletes, so I'll just keep quiet for now.

Also in regards to a firmer ruleset, I agree fully. I'll admit, I've only read the rules twice or thrice - one of those being when I signed up. The point is that rules are meant to lay down the groundwork for the context of acceptability, but most people don't read the rules much, if at all. The upper forums (everything north of Creative Projects) don't even have the rules stickied. I feel that there should be more reference to the rules - as of now they just feel like the mandatory to keep the forum from degenerating into porn and spam, but not enough to keep them well-ordered. Setting out more concrete rules, or even emphasizing the existing ones - would be a huge step forward in my opinion.

About the whole report button dilemma, I feel that Retro already summed it up succinctly in his first post. This however ties in to Toady's style of moderation - he doesn't actively go out and monitor potentially bad threads, but waits for the reports to come in. This is the best style of moderation considering the forums as a whole are getting far too big to read each and every thread. The problem here is that people are still reluctant to use the button, waiting for others to do so, much like the bystander effect. Usually, threads degenerate into the personal attacks stage before anyone gets sufficiently riled up to submit a report, by which time the thread has passed beyond redemption.

I know that Toady has already stated his lack of need for more mods, but I still feel that more mods would be better, especially active ones who monitor inflammatory threads. Since the different sections attract a different crowd, why don't we have section moderators, such as Fox up in LCS? In my admittedly short experience, the Finally sections all seem to cater to radically different tastes, unlike the DF boards, so different mods for each section would be fairer for those frequenting them.

I haven't visited the bay12games IRC at all, so I can't say much on the matter.

Other (possibly unrelated) stuff:

Since we're talking about stuff that irritates you, but not enough to call in a moderator, is anyone else irritated by the sheer number of threads popping up recently? I notice that recently, there's been a tendency for newer members to make threads with provocative titles and little to no content OPs, then just try to keep their threads on the front page as long as possible. It feels like they're trying to be famous for having made a topic on the front page, however deluded that feeling may be. This also creates a huge glut of threads with less than five or so pages of replies, and also occasionally brews over into a flamewar.

[Kagus]

This is probably unwise, as it tends to be, but I feel yet another strong urge to voice my opinions on the matter.

I'm seeing a lot of people who mainly frequent IRC on the 'the forums are degraded' side of the fence, and a lot of people who frequent the forums on the 'the forums are fine' side of the fence.

As has been said, a lot of the IRC folks were once forumites.  But even disregarding that, I can absolutely guarantee you that you will find plenty of people who still consider themselves active members of the forum who don't care for the current trends.

Threads like these are the beginning of the end for a forum's "Golden Age". In fact, this probably officially ended it for B12forums. Now that somebody has said we're stagnating, it will forever more be etched into the community's minds.

You came a little late to the theater, friend.  This has been a topic for months, if not the past year or more (actually, there have apparently been phases of disgust throughout all the years of Bay12's community, long before I came here).  It hasn't been the 'Golden Age' for a very long time, and this by no means is the first thread to bring the matter up (although it is one of the better-worded ones).

I think the problem here is that Toady has been distant from the community long enough now that he just doesn't get any of us any more. He's not in on the in-jokes.

This almost made me laugh.  Yeah, Toady isn't as ingrained in the community as he used to be.  Back in my early days he would personally tweak spambot messages and rewrite them into parodies.  Everyone would cluster around eagerly in the event something actually spammed us.  And in the older threads you can see him flinging banter with ancient members of a forgotten era.

But is it really so difficult to imagine that there are some things he just doesn't like?  We are all bound by our personal tastes and preferences.  Heck, this fact is almost certainly the primary contributing factor to a lot of the unrest and ill will that's been going around for some time.  Yes, I can imagine there are a few things that he might enjoy more if he were either used to it or was better acquainted with the people who started it, but I really just think that a lot of the stuff being brought up here just can't be reconciled in that way.  Different people like different things.

Toady: You need to be clear. Your detached presence worked out great when you weren't fuming at the forumgoers here, but it's not working out when you are at the core of a situation. If you really feel that your feathers have been ruffled and you aren't getting your way on your own forum, you need to say so LOUDLY and PUBLICALLY. We're going to miss it if you bury your opinion in a sanction post in the middle of a thread.

Toady likes things to be calm, controlled, and reasonable.  Perfectly understandable.  As such, when a problem flares up, he likes to treat it specifically and cut it out rather than spread shit around to the rest of the community.  I believe this may be a reason for why there are no banlogs (if there are indeed actual reasons for not having one), because he doesn't feel it needs to be shouted out and made a bigger deal of.

Because of this, he will make his point quite clear in exactly the place he feels it needs to be presented.  If you somehow miss one of his posts because the thread is just altogether too rambunctious, then it's quite clear that there are some bigger problems at hand than Toady's posting habits.

And just as a casual observer may not see a specific post in a specific thread, so may an equally casual observer not realize that a general post in a public place applies to them.  Firmly stated points may be missed if addressed to a too-large audience.

There are no chatroom discussions about how terrible you are. Nobody is PMing back and forth wondering what your real motivations are.

Actually, that's not true.  People have been questioning or outright decrying the Adams brothers' moderation tactics and abilities.  Scorned posters who have had a treasured thread locked down or have been temporarily muted will interpret their personal experiences as general failings of the higher-ups, and state such opinions in both private and public means.

Yeah, Tarn has a lot of admiration and support from the boards...  But that's not to say there aren't those who complain about what they view as lacking or tyrannical administration.

[Retro]

Firstly, earlier in the thread, several people were advocating for a Moderator/Ban Log, similar to the one on the MSPA forums, which was brought up as an example. While a mod log would indeed clear up several disputes regarding mod actions such as muting and banning, I don't think many of you have considered the actual amount of effort that would have to be put in to support such an endeavor. Some people were talking about finding out the context behind a reported post in a large/fast-moving thread, and in order for a mod log to be even remotely helpful, they would have to find and quote all the relevant posts that led up to the offensive one. In effect, a mod log would actually increase moderator workload, and for not much benefit besides occasional interested posters going to find out what happened to deleted threads. I am therefore against the idea of maintaining a specific thread for this purpose.

What I had in mind was more "I deleted the Forum Members Fanfiction thread for being way off topic, not really having a point to begin with, and ending in people posting images with swastikas appended to them" or "Banned Bob for picking a fight in Other Games." Not really an intensive thing so much as a sentence or two letting us know what's up.

[The Merchant Of Menace]

That's what I had in mind for the graveyard board.

[Leafsnail]

No, I'm sure it doesn't.
Probably because a vast majority of the problem cases aren't reported until they flare into something particularly nasty.
If we had active moderators who were actually somewhat-part of the threads, they could stop the fights or whatever before they got bad enough to require reporting.
Hell, even knowing that there's a mod on active patrol like that would possibly weed out some of the offenders.

I think this is wrong.  Let's call our hypothetical new mod "User X".

If User X would've deleted a thread, they would surely have reported it as a regular user.  Then Toady or Threetoe would've seen and dealt with it.  The only difference that would happen is that a bunch of people would dislike User X for deleting a thread, petition Toady to overturn the decision and try to undermine User X.  The advantage of the current system is that ALL decisions carry complete weight, and the first court of appeal is also the last (I think Threetoe usually discusses important decisions with Toady before making them).

Basically, there is NO backlog of reports (as far as I know, since Toady said he was coping fine).  Maybe if there were, I dunno, 50 pages and rising of unseen reports then we'd new mods.  Until then, we're fine with the current ones.

You came a little late to the theater, friend.  This has been a topic for months, if not the past year or more (actually, there have apparently been phases of disgust throughout all the years of Bay12's community, long before I came here).  It hasn't been the 'Golden Age' for a very long time, and this by no means is the first thread to bring the matter up (although it is one of the better-worded ones).

So when exactly was this "Golden Age"?  I can remember threads complaining that the forums had gone to hell since way before I first joined.

[Anticheese]

Many of us were more active in the forums in times past. We didn't stop being active because we only felt like being on IRC from now on.

Exactly. I used to post on the forums a lot, but now I just can't be bothered to wade through the bullshit. It's not that we 'have no intention of joining the community.'

Ditto.

[Vector]

Many of us were more active in the forums in times past. We didn't stop being active because we only felt like being on IRC from now on.

Exactly. I used to post on the forums a lot, but now I just can't be bothered to wade through the bullshit. It's not that we 'have no intention of joining the community.'

Ditto.

Similar, I guess--I used to post a lot more, and nowadays I typically check things out once a day or so.  I read a couple of relevant posts, but most of the time I just skip to the end of threads, say what I'm going to say, and leave.  I spend most of my time here arguing about feminism, which is kind of sad, I guess.

(Before you say "But Vector, you sure post a lot for someone who doesn't like it here" I'm just going to say "I mostly like the people here, if not the current atmosphere, and I literally have no social life outside of these fora due to being in the middle of transferring between colleges.")

I've also noticed my favorite members generally posting here a lot less, of late--and when I talked to them, they didn't seem exactly happy about the current state of things.  I'm not saying the new people need to leave.  I'm just saying it'd be nice if they toned it down a bit.

[3]

I'm not saying the new people need to leave.  I'm just saying it'd be nice if they toned it down a bit.

To be frank, I don't think you're quite one to talk. Or perhaps your post serves as an example of the cyclical supposed "golden age" thinking.

[Vector]

To be frank, I don't think you're quite one to talk. Or perhaps your post serves as an example of the cyclical supposed "golden age" thinking.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is.  Have I been posting spammy images or one-word posts while I wasn't watching?

Well, yes, I can remember a couple now that I think of it, though those were links (or spoilered comics) in the happy and sad threads whose meaning seemed fairly obvious.

I've been around for about a year and a half, so I don't consider myself "new" anymore.  If there's some part of my behavior that you consider obtrusive, irritating, or downright impolite, let me know and I'll curb myself.

EDIT: Actually, you seem to have joined after me.  Huh.  Anyway, I'm not saying there's some kind of mythical "golden age."  I'm saying that I feel like spam has been on the rise, and I haven't noticed older members engaging in it so much as the newer ones.  There are, of course, a number of them that have, but as a general statement, it seems to be mostly new folks who show up and go batty.  The "things that made you feel _____ today" threads are mostly made by regulars, to be sure, so ... I guess I suppose I should say "everyone should tone themselves down a bit."