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[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Oh Argem. Short answer to your post. It's from top to bottom, somes responses include more than 1 lines. Feel free to bitch about the lack of quotes.

No automatic claim because fear of modwrath, basically claimed on post 2.

Moral high ground get, since that's the whole point of the claim. I did it since in my opinion thats what a townie has to do. Disagree, i dont really mind, ive explained my reasoning many times.

A bit of quote shuffling on your part, not a good liar is far from the not shuffling around. With retrospect, i can see the point, i took time to do an explicit claim, but you had to be retarded not get my claim after post 3.

Hope you had a good Christmas, after the factly.

Where your answer ? What does having a self claimed do to the town ? If its that i my be lying, you could check and see that there are actually 10 other people around that can lie. Do the math on that.

First scumhunting did wait a  bit, but that would have been rude to ignore all your post and question.

I dont like selfpress, i prefer the term answering you guys stupid remontrance. Still early on Jokerman and Org following your logic,

Finally, on your vote

Very scummy how ? OMGUS i caught from your post( and of course i disagree with) Anything else ?

Legitimate reason to lynch a Kook ? Those i missed entirely, unless you mean the post you made earlier, that you abandonned after people made you understand that you basically advocated a policy lynch ?

Yaaaaaaaay indeed.

<New post, and again i will have to restate eveything to Zathras. Joy.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

But I have to comment at least a bit on the latest batch of pearls from MBP:

"Question are not the most important source of pressure" does not mean that they are not. That's being malicious.

That's not what you said. You said "Pressure is NOT mesured by question asked. Thats a smokeschreen and you know it." So, am I pressuring you by questioning you, or not? You are squirming to get out of what you said. Where's that smokescreen to which you referred?

Disengenous. Pressure is not mesured per question asked. Number of question asked does not correlate to Pressure. In the post i respond to you were saying that i did not receive pressure since only you and Arg were questionning me, wich is a nonsense, which i pointed. Use your own interpretation all you want.

You seem to think that Kook claim is the greatest strategy ever for a dopp, but all you ever talk about is from a perfect dopp game point of view.

Nope. I said it's not the best tactic, but it's certainly a viable one.

Don't put words in my mouth

.

Fine by me, but for it to be viable it would still need a good player, and i'll argue as long as you want that just staying hidden is better for a dopp.

Lie because i said you did not read my post ? Well clearly your opinion is so much superior to mine that i should instantly agree with you. After all, your opinion on your strawman version of my post represent clearly and fairly my exact and precise tought.

You said "Zathras disregarding eveything in my post." I proved I didn't. It's not up to interpretation, you stated an untruth. Do you still think I disregarded everything in it? If so, show it. If not, then you are lying, as I said. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact.

Nope, you proved that you read my post. You did not prove that you actually looked at their meaning. But heh, a technical point for you, since if you use the exact word I did lie.  Except that, again, it's not the point, and you have no problem just rambling on on technicalities without ever questioning your self-logic.

theres is absolutely no way you may be wrong, or self-interested in any mean, defending myself from your bullshit is a clear neon sign that i am the absolute worst scum in history and should die forever.

Wow. And you dare to call me for strawmen? Shit, dude, you're dripping in it now.

Maybe you missed the "Now that all the sarcasm is evacuated". I'm hardly surprised.

Scumhunting lacking on my part ? Fair enough, but you havent got much more to show to me. Zath , go on and cry OMGUS on top of your lungs, to had a little bit of shit to your castle, i don't care.

* cries at top of lungs * OOMMGGUUSS!!!!  8-P
Heh. But that aside, I do have more to show, and I don't need to show it to you, but to the rest:

Oh yes, i actually did not comment your bullshit just under that.

Yes, we don't have anything solid on the top contenders, so we go for scumminess. You have on you so far: a) an entirely useless RV question; b) utter lack of hunting; c) your claim, well defended; d) your OMGUSy "suspicions"; e) your endless self-preservation and insistence of your innocence; f) your overt lies about my responding your questions; g) your willingness to see someone else hang even if you clearly don't think they're scummy enough, but better them than you; and recently h) your call for those attacking you to redirect their efforts elsewhere: "Mom! They're picking on me! Leave me alone!" is also a scumtell, from a scum cracking under pressure.

To this we can add the two further lies above, the defence of a previous lie, and a nice strawman. As I said earlier, it's not an overwhelming case, but more than I have on the others, so I present it for review and vote you for it. Each point is small on its own, but I see their cumulative effect as telling, hence my "grains of sand" comment.

I'm surprised people seem prone to take you at your word, but that's OK. To each his own. As I said in my previous, my point is made and it's up to people to make their own minds up, and a wider breadth would be healthy for all involved, so I'll move elsewhere for now... unless you keep jamming your own foot in your mouth and leave us no choice.
[/quote]


a) an entirely useless RV question;  Nothing
b) utter lack of hunting;                Clearly, i'm unique there..  emphasis added on sarcasme, for the good of all.
c) your claim, well defended;         Well thank you i guess.
d) your OMGUSy "suspicions";        They are votes now.
e) your endless self-preservation and insistence of your innocence;             Clearly not sacrificing a town role is scummy. I won't add the emphasis. It should be pretty pungent.
f) your overt lies about my responding your questions;                           Overt yes. Scummy ? How so?
g) your willingness to see someone else hang even if you clearly don't think they're scummy enough, but better them than you;                                        Not true anymore, you got my pick. pretty much anyone got his. for reason they stated themselves.
h) your call for those attacking you to redirect their efforts elsewhere: "Mom! They're picking on me! Leave me alone!" is also a scumtell, from a scum cracking under pressure.              Yet i'm still posting way too much about me, and Argem wont stop claiming that i never shut it about myself. I'm doing a pitifull job at it.



Oh and i can agree on a change of pace, I'm getting tired of typing 2 hours each night.

[JanusTwoface]

a bit of a misunderstanding that you were actually being serious about lynching Org

I'm always serious about lynching Org. I just understand that it never seems to happen. (<- mostly not serious)

Do you have anything more detailed about Argembarger being scum?

See the end of this post.

... fourth on someone's bandwagon?

Didn't actually notice when I cast the vote, doesn't change it.

You two not just believe it's a null tell, but actually believe him to be town!

There's only two likely possibilities: scum fake claiming and Kook. Kooks are town.

I may be jumping the gun here, but I offer an alternative possible explanation: Janus is MBP's scumbuddy, glad to let him fakeclaim, coaching him on defence, and then ensuring he's not lynched by going after the more vulnerable of the people voting him. What do you think... plausible?

No. There's only two Dopps, if they do anything associating them it is going to go badly.

JTF, why did you pick the least active players as 3 out of your 4 suspects? Do you want to quietly hang them while picking off active players at night? What are you other reasons?
Also, what are you reasons to disregard MBP as a suspect except for belief that scum won't claim Kook on D1? Do you understand the WIFOM possibility?

Because they're 3 of the 4 people that I suspect right now.  And I think that he's clean enough right now. There are only two scum, the more likely explination is that he actually is a Kook. From the meta perspective, it's been a good while (IIRC) since there was a game without a Kook.


Things that have bugged me about Argembarger:

Reply #64 - Long answer to a relatively simple question, sets the tone that he's still learning, asks Jokerman-EXE about Policy Lynches
Reply #71 - Dopp Enchanter is most powerful because win at LYLO (by which there would have been a MC I'd hope)
Reply #72 - First picture response to Org, unvotes Leafsnail after a lackluster response, doesn't move forward
Reply #110 - Asks the same questions (of Dariush and ToonyMan) that others have been asking
Reply #119 - YouTube link
Reply #123 - 'ToonyMan has a custom role'
Reply #141 - 'Don't use meta', starts on the Kook thing, second double post, ties the vote
Reply #150 - Thinks Kook should have waited to claim, says 'might as well be a coin toss'
Reply #154 - Continues to push 'lynch the kook', long post that doesn't actually say that much
Reply #164 - More picture responses
Reply #172 - Another really long post, wants to vote ToonyMan but doesn't
Reply #176 - Accepting vs believing, looks like he wants more evidence to lynch ToonyMan, still doesn't vote him
Reply #184 - Requests top three scumpicks from everyone, going for 4 'easy lynches' (as of that point)

[Jim Groovester]

All that bugs you about Argembarger?

That's most of his posts.

But you haven't even said why you suspect him. You just summarized his posts into single lines. Am I supposed to infer why you suspect him from that?

Normally you're pretty free to give a summary of the reasons why you suspect somebody, but instead you give me a list of posts and nothing on why anything in them is suspicious at all. And everything makes you suspicious of Argembarger? That never happens, unless you're scum just looking for anything and everything you can say is a scumtell.

Yeah, you're definitely scum.

[Zathras]

You two not just believe it's a null tell, but actually believe him to be town!

There's only two likely possibilities: scum fake claiming and Kook. Kooks are town.

Sure, there are two possible values for his actual alignment, but there are three for your perception of it: surely scum, town, or somewhere in between (to be weighed based on other criteria, relative to others). You went to the extreme that clears him, and failed to address the points about the logic behind it. That's not what you normally do. I ask again, what is your rationale for claiming he's town? Was my earlier logic faulty?

NB: Here I'm no longer trying to convince him of MBP's scumminess, rather, I'm pulling at new scumminess and fuzzy thinking shown by Janus.

I may be jumping the gun here, but I offer an alternative possible explanation: Janus is MBP's scumbuddy, glad to let him fakeclaim, coaching him on defence, and then ensuring he's not lynched by going after the more vulnerable of the people voting him. What do you think... plausible?

No. There's only two Dopps, if they do anything associating them it is going to go badly.

You're right that association between them would be unwise, but you didn't actually associate with MBP at all, did you? You stayed in the fringes of the discussion (your comments on the whole thing were: "MBP? Probably just new" and "oh, not new? Ug"), then advocated the popular position ("he's kook, kooks are town"); that's all your involvement and possible association, but with that managed to subtly discourage others from voting him and voted the person that was voting him who was easiest to lynch... Nothing direct or easy to tie back to you at all, unless one looks a bit deeper.

Things that have bugged me about Argembarger:

I'll let Arg defend himself, but some of these are so flimsy that your bringing them up is scummy in their own right; comments inline in purple:

Reply #71 - Dopp Enchanter is most powerful because win at LYLO (by which there would have been a MC I'd hope). Why does this "bug you"? Do you think a dopp enchanter would be unable to survive to lylo or through MC? Is the fact that he considered this scummy for you?
Reply #164 - More picture responses; Really? picture responses? C'mon!
#176[/url] - Accepting vs believing, looks like he wants more evidence to lynch ToonyMan, still doesn't vote him; I also did the accepting vs believing thing... is this scummy of him, but not of me?
Reply #184 - Requests top three scumpicks from everyone, going for 4 'easy lynches' (as of that point). And yet, he has stuck by them (or at least the first one) even though it's no longer "easy"... so what gives? Scummy or not? Why is it in the list?

No, Janus. I find that post list of yours of things you find "bothersome" to be made up to justify a spurious bandwagon vote as opposed to being a list of reasons that made you vote that way. I'm not defending Arg, I'm saying your attack lacks logic and is flimsy and insufficient; that plus your clearing of MBP without justification and participation in that discussion leaves you smelling very scummy.

Questions for you:
- If at the end of the day the vote is tied between Arg and Org, and you have the deciding vote, where would you cast it? How about between Arg and Leafsnail, or Leafsnail and Jokerman?
- What is your current read of Toaster, Jim, Toony and Dariush?
- Ahem: do you think policy lynches are scummy? (not that a policy lynch is what is advocated for MBP now, but it seems to be part of what "bugs" you about Arg). Or is it only scummy when other people do it?
- Is your vote on Arg a pressure vote to get more from him, or a "he's scum, hang 'im" vote? Your other suspicions are Org (OK), and two unknowns (Leaf: "not enough content", and Joker: "is he even playing?"). Do you actually suspect those last two? Would you vote them if their activity doesn't increase or as pressure to get them to talk, or are you content with the wagon vote? Do you have any suspicions on anyone else?

[Dariush]

Zathras:

Yes, I indeed think that MBP's claim should be ignored (for now). If we lynch him, nobody would ever claim Kook again. If we don't lynch him (because of his claim), every dopp would claim Kook. Man, this is the first day, we don't know virtually anything!

What are you saying here? That he should be lynched D2? I don't follow. Also, please tell me your impressions on Leasfnail, Janus and Toaster.

I said he should be ignored at least until D2. Ignored!=lynched later. Your argument with him has lots of fine points from both sides, but he strikes me as more scummy due to lack of hunting (yes, I know that it's been said and I know that you, MBP, are not unique, but if I get to pick between Zath and MBP, I would pick MBP).
Leafsnail: either inactive town, or inactive scum. He can be temporarily excused (it's holidays after all), but unless he starts talking , I'd think he's the latter.
Toaster: Uh... hard to say anything about him. He's being all pokey and FoSy and not sufficiently votey, so more probably scum than not.
Janus: I think he's town. Well, I will think so after he answers the following question:
Janus:

JTF, why did you pick the least active players as 3 out of your 4 suspects? Do you want to quietly hang them while picking off active players at night? What are you other reasons?
Also, what are you reasons to disregard MBP as a suspect except for belief that scum won't claim Kook on D1? Do you understand the WIFOM possibility?

Because they're 3 of the 4 people that I suspect right now.  And I think that he's clean enough right now. There are only two scum, the more likely explination is that he actually is a Kook. From the meta perspective, it's been a good while (IIRC) since there was a game without a Kook.

WHY do you suspect them, apart from their inactivity? 'Because I suspect them' isn't cutting it.
Also, how is the fact that there's only two scum leads to probability that he is Kook? 

Argembarger:
You were correct that whatever you do about your vote, you'll certainly hang; Your only hope right now is to roleclaim and hope that it is something both useful and verifiable. IMO. Note that even though I say so, I'm in no way convinced you're town, but if you are, and someone useful at that, it would be better for everyone if you claim right now.
Also, your quoting of probabilities would work only assuming everyone scanned at random, which they don't do. More unrelated information doesn't help your case at all.

Toaster:
You've managed to stay mostly out of the game by asking questions from time to time and relaxing while the discussion boiled on around you. Explain your behaviour.

[Argembarger]

@Janus, what do those things even mean? How do they make me scummy? Why no analysis? I can't defend myself from this; there's nothing to defend! It looks like a bullshit list you threw out to waste time until the end of the day.

@Dariush, why do you always seem like you're a page or so behind in this thread? I'm a vanilla townie with a mind shield. I'm not really bothered by the potential of being lynched. I'd rather stay around and help town hunt, but I'm a safe enough mislynch, plus: I got some people riled up and acting scummy, which should help town in the long run.

@Everyone voting me, you've asked me to explain why voting a kook is good policy: I've done this. You've asked me to provide reasons why MysteriousBluePuppet is scummy and justifiable to vote in his own regard: I've done this as well. The only other kind of reasoning I've seen behind voting me is stuff like "Ehhhh he just seems off to me" or "He talks a lot". These reasons are far more shitty than my reasons for voting MBP.

I would like everyone voting me to state their case on me. Preferably sooner rather than later. I don't expect to be able to defend myself, simply because I doubt there is actually time before the hammer falls.

And they had better be actual cases; they had better have analysis and justification. Explain to me why your vote on me is more justified than my vote on MBP. And try not to look too much like an activelurking, bandwagoning scumbag in the process.

I've done the work, I expect you all to as well, dammit.

Feel free to link me to your case if already stated, though if it isn't up-to-date it's probably not the greatest one you could have.

[Toaster]

Argembarger:

I sure appreciate my posts being called nonsense and carelessly thrown in in the Toony and Org zone

It kind of makes me wonder if all you did was skim them, looking for a quick point you could easily counter, meanwhile sitting back and waiting for the day to end.

If my posts really are nonsensical, please, be my guest and start dismantling them: show me the error of my thinking. I've written plenty of material to work with.

You're right: I should have been more specific here, but I was in a hurry.  Since you and Zathras wanted a unified case against you, let me organize it here.  (I'll answer your latest questions at the end.)

Starting here you vote MBP for his kook claim.  Your only other reasoning is that he was odd about claiming it.  The contradiction that I indicated here got my attention, along with the MBP vote.  You respond fairly well to the contradiction here, but you state that a post-inspection kook claim is better:  my response to that, which I still stand by.  I ask you to bring out any other evidence you have on him, and your next post is crap.  I call you on that, and you respond:

Argembarger:  Since my request for more reasoning behind your vote got a picture of a troll and a scene from Scanners, I thank you for confirming that you're scum.

I don't believe the utter tripe that keeps spewing from Org and Toony's mouths is something that should be ignored, personally. But alright.

I'm pretty sure I've given you all the reasoning I have to give, already.

Kook claim can not be trusted, was unnecessary, was given with a bunch of strange behavior alongside, and is inherently stuffed with WIFOM. If that's really seen as unacceptable reasoning to vote on day 1, in a bastard mod, then I have no idea what to think about anything.

First part is silly.  You're encouraging them to be useless by being useless back to them, especially Org since ToonyMan eventually posted actual content.  Second part just strikes me as contrived.  Yes, he was being odd about his claim, but that seems awfully weak reasoning for a vote.

Further, you say in that same post in response to Leafsnail...

3. Did you read the post in which I voted MBP? I wasn't voting for the kook claim, I was voting for the circumstances behind it, AKA the motivation for claiming it, and the method in which it was claimed. Kook claim itself is a null tell.

I don't buy this.  It looks pretty clear to me from that post that claiming kook at *all* is part of your reasoning to vote him.  You're changing your story.

Prima: "I am voting Secunda because I am a cop and I investigated Secunda last night and got a result of dopp."

Secunda: "The result is dopp because I am a kook. Also I can confirm Prima's cop claim."

After that, Town should lynch Secunda unless they have a very good reason not to.

I mean, that's sort of the entire idea behind the kook role, isn't it? You don't want anyone to investigate you, because it looks really really really bad and there's not really any viable way to confirm it. Anyone who is discovered to be a kook is highly likely to be lynched, that's just the way it is. But if they can help town before they die, or at the very least confirm someone as being a cop, (hopefully in such a case there's a doctor in the house to get a Follow-The-Cop situation going) then Town has a better shot at it than they did before. And if town wins, the Kook wins too.

In this case, lynching MBP helps town by getting rid of the WIFOM of having a self-proclaimed kook sitting around.

-snip-

If MBP is telling the truth, and is a townie kook, better to lynch him now, because his role is passively anti-town and can only cause trouble in the future.
I'm sorry, but that's just the way I feel about the situation.
If I were a kook, I would expect the exact same treatment if I were discovered, regardless of the circumstances.

This is full of holes.  First, that would not confirm a cop claim- it could be a BSing dopp getting lucky.  It could even be a dopp agent who found a kook while hunting for aliens.  Second, you've reversed yourself again- now we're back to lynching him solely for being a kook, a role which you now say is "passively anti-town."  You really hammer that point home in your long follow up to MBP.

Your response to Jim is crap.  You say no one scummier is around- really?  Nothing scummier than your case on MBP, which is:

1.  He claimed kook
2.  See point 1

You've been attacking Dariush, and complaining about Org and Toony, but they're not scummier than a mere kook claim?  But I thought...

Kook claim itself is a null tell.

Moving up to present posts...

Argembarger:  So you think any claim of kook is lynchworthy.  Ok, but let me put this to you: any agent knows not to scan him.  That gives said agent a narrower target profile, which helps the odds of a positive result.

Chance of an agent hitting scum if Kook is telling the truth: 2/9 or 3/9
Chance of an agent hitting scum if Kook is lying: 1/9 or 2/9

This is a very interesting argument. The odds get better only if MBP is telling the truth. The odds actually get smaller if he's lying.
If we want to talk about Agent scumfinding chances, a good way to optimize it is to simply lynch the kook, because we can get rid of that dangerous "lying" possibility.

How would lynching him do anything to the agent's chances?  You're assuming that the odds change after a roleflip as opposed to game start.

Also, if he's telling the truth, we don't expose an agent falsely.  Yes, it doesn't help if he's lying, but there is *some* benefit to the town.  Is it outweighed by the WIFOM?  I lean toward no, because we can just continue to judge the claimee on his own merits.  I don't think MBP is particularly scummy.

First off, what in the world are you talking about, exposing an agent falsely? What do you mean? Elaborate upon this. Especially after you've already said that no agent in their right mind would target the man.

Judging the claimee on his own merits, eh? Wouldn't that be easier if his claim had come later in the game, when he has a post history with which to even make a judgement like that?

However, I don't find him to be particularly townish, even from the few posts he's made so far this game. The only real """town""" move I've seen argued for the man stems from this odd philosophy that an early kook claim is somehow something a townie would be likely to do.

Exposing agent:  If a kook did not claim, and the agent got his first guilty result on him, then logically agent would claim his results.  The agent would then be known before he got any true results.

Judging claims:  What difference does it make?  A D1 claim is a good way to provoke discussion (look at this game!) and provides ample opportunity for him to present his own case.  Claiming it after a result provides discussion, sure, but most of it will be everyone telling him that they think his post-inspection claim is bullshit.

Townieness:  But has he done anything scummy?  Per the posts of yours I've been pointing out, it looks like the answer is no.

Next up: about face!  Suddenly he's scummy again for his actions, not the mere kook claim!


Final summary:  Your initial vote was insubstantial.  You've gone back and forth several times on your reasoning for voting him.  You've directly contradicted yourself on if a kook claim is scummy or not.  You're shuffling around to force a mislynch.  You are scum- go hang.



Others:  I'll get to your posts in a bit.  I want this down before it gets eaten.

[Mephansteras]

The Monitor
Argembarger: JanusTwoface, Leafsnail, Toaster, ToonyMan
JanusTwoface: Jim Groovester
Jim Groovester: Dariush
Mysteriousbluepuppet: Argembarger, Org, Zathras
Zathras: Mysteriousbluepuppet


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today. There will be no more extensions.

[Argembarger]

Oh, cool, looks like I will have time to make some counterpoints.

Argembarger:

I sure appreciate my posts being called nonsense and carelessly thrown in in the Toony and Org zone

It kind of makes me wonder if all you did was skim them, looking for a quick point you could easily counter, meanwhile sitting back and waiting for the day to end.

If my posts really are nonsensical, please, be my guest and start dismantling them: show me the error of my thinking. I've written plenty of material to work with.

You're right: I should have been more specific here, but I was in a hurry.  Since you and Zathras wanted a unified case against you, let me organize it here.  (I'll answer your latest questions at the end.)

Starting here you vote MBP for his kook claim.  Your only other reasoning is that he was odd about claiming it.  The contradiction that I indicated here got my attention, along with the MBP vote.  You respond fairly well to the contradiction here, but you state that a post-inspection kook claim is better:  my response to that, which I still stand by.

First off, no, I didn't vote him just for the kook claim.

I say you are among my top scumpicks because, instead of just saying Town, which would have been a true fact for your alignment as a Kook, you went all shy and coy with it and roleclaimed without a good reason. Personally, I find preemptive defenses and claims to be scummy.

And I'd be willing to lynch you just to get that wine out of my face.

I respond well to the "contradiction", because there wasn't one. I don't really care about the number of votes, but I don't want to end the day in a tie. Those two beliefs can run alongside each other with no problems.

And as for our differing opinions on post-inspection kook claims, it's simply a difference in philosophy, I suppose. But don't claim I have poor judgement just because I disagree with you.

I ask you to bring out any other evidence you have on him, and your next post is crap.  I call you on that, and you respond:

Argembarger:  Since my request for more reasoning behind your vote got a picture of a troll and a scene from Scanners, I thank you for confirming that you're scum.

I don't believe the utter tripe that keeps spewing from Org and Toony's mouths is something that should be ignored, personally. But alright.

I'm pretty sure I've given you all the reasoning I have to give, already.

Kook claim can not be trusted, was unnecessary, was given with a bunch of strange behavior alongside, and is inherently stuffed with WIFOM. If that's really seen as unacceptable reasoning to vote on day 1, in a bastard mod, then I have no idea what to think about anything.

First part is silly.  You're encouraging them to be useless by being useless back to them, especially Org since ToonyMan eventually posted actual content.  Second part just strikes me as contrived.  Yes, he was being odd about his claim, but that seems awfully weak reasoning for a vote.

You might as well FOS anyone who told Org or Toony to stop being useless. You could easily replace my "picture responses" with "Hey, stop being useless and weird". Is it very useful in and of itself? No, but to expect me to be the magic shaman that causes Org and Toony to shape up, and suspecting me because I'm not, seems rather shaky firmament.

Further, you say in that same post in response to Leafsnail...

3. Did you read the post in which I voted MBP? I wasn't voting for the kook claim, I was voting for the circumstances behind it, AKA the motivation for claiming it, and the method in which it was claimed. Kook claim itself is a null tell.

I don't buy this.  It looks pretty clear to me from that post that claiming kook at *all* is part of your reasoning to vote him.  You're changing your story.

This is rather open to interpretation I guess, if you want to consider "motivation for claiming kook" and "claiming kook" to be the same thing, that's your entitlement I suppose.

But I deny that I'm "changing my story".

Prima: "I am voting Secunda because I am a cop and I investigated Secunda last night and got a result of dopp."

Secunda: "The result is dopp because I am a kook. Also I can confirm Prima's cop claim."

After that, Town should lynch Secunda unless they have a very good reason not to.

I mean, that's sort of the entire idea behind the kook role, isn't it? You don't want anyone to investigate you, because it looks really really really bad and there's not really any viable way to confirm it. Anyone who is discovered to be a kook is highly likely to be lynched, that's just the way it is. But if they can help town before they die, or at the very least confirm someone as being a cop, (hopefully in such a case there's a doctor in the house to get a Follow-The-Cop situation going) then Town has a better shot at it than they did before. And if town wins, the Kook wins too.

In this case, lynching MBP helps town by getting rid of the WIFOM of having a self-proclaimed kook sitting around.

-snip-

If MBP is telling the truth, and is a townie kook, better to lynch him now, because his role is passively anti-town and can only cause trouble in the future.
I'm sorry, but that's just the way I feel about the situation.
If I were a kook, I would expect the exact same treatment if I were discovered, regardless of the circumstances.

This is full of holes.  First, that would not confirm a cop claim- it could be a BSing dopp getting lucky.  It could even be a dopp agent who found a kook while hunting for aliens.  Second, you've reversed yourself again- now we're back to lynching him solely for being a kook, a role which you now say is "passively anti-town."  You really hammer that point home in your long follow up to MBP.

Again with claiming I'm changing my story.

The consequences of his kookiness, in this particular case, and his kookiness itself, are separate things. I've never claimed I was voting him "because he is a kook" because that would be stupid, and indeed I give an example where claiming kook is acceptable (late game, lots of posts and activity to analyze)

I've never denied that the consequences of his kookiness, in this case, weren't a factor; they are separate from his scumminess itself, yes, and when I get asked questions related to the consequences of his kookiness, that's what I focus on. Just because I'm not saying something about his scumminess at that very time doesn't mean I've omitted it as a factor.

Your response to Jim is crap.  You say no one scummier is around- really?  Nothing scummier than your case on MBP, which is:

1.  He claimed kook
2.  See point 1

You've been attacking Dariush, and complaining about Org and Toony, but they're not scummier than a mere kook claim?  But I thought...

Kook claim itself is a null tell.

Ok, nevermind my case on MBP's scumminess then. Yes, kook claim itself is a null tell. I've said this. sheesh.

Moving up to present posts...

Argembarger:  So you think any claim of kook is lynchworthy.  Ok, but let me put this to you: any agent knows not to scan him.  That gives said agent a narrower target profile, which helps the odds of a positive result.

Chance of an agent hitting scum if Kook is telling the truth: 2/9 or 3/9
Chance of an agent hitting scum if Kook is lying: 1/9 or 2/9

This is a very interesting argument. The odds get better only if MBP is telling the truth. The odds actually get smaller if he's lying.
If we want to talk about Agent scumfinding chances, a good way to optimize it is to simply lynch the kook, because we can get rid of that dangerous "lying" possibility.

How would lynching him do anything to the agent's chances?  You're assuming that the odds change after a roleflip as opposed to game start.

If MBP is lying about being a kook, and is a dopp, the Agent's chances change because one of the dopps is among a group of people that the Agent will utterly ignore.

Simple.

Also, if he's telling the truth, we don't expose an agent falsely.  Yes, it doesn't help if he's lying, but there is *some* benefit to the town.  Is it outweighed by the WIFOM?  I lean toward no, because we can just continue to judge the claimee on his own merits.  I don't think MBP is particularly scummy.

First off, what in the world are you talking about, exposing an agent falsely? What do you mean? Elaborate upon this. Especially after you've already said that no agent in their right mind would target the man.

Judging the claimee on his own merits, eh? Wouldn't that be easier if his claim had come later in the game, when he has a post history with which to even make a judgement like that?

However, I don't find him to be particularly townish, even from the few posts he's made so far this game. The only real """town""" move I've seen argued for the man stems from this odd philosophy that an early kook claim is somehow something a townie would be likely to do.

Exposing agent:  If a kook did not claim, and the agent got his first guilty result on him, then logically agent would claim his results.  The agent would then be known before he got any true results.

Or the Agent could, instead of herpderping his way to being night killed, pressure the suspected scum without claiming. And only claim when necessary. The same thing applies to ANY agent investigation.

But, you know, whatever.

Judging claims:  What difference does it make?  A D1 claim is a good way to provoke discussion (look at this game!) and provides ample opportunity for him to present his own case.  Claiming it after a result provides discussion, sure, but most of it will be everyone telling him that they think his post-inspection claim is bullshit.

This is just our differing philosophies once again. I know how I would react to a post-inspection claim, and you know how you would. This doesn't really say anything about my scumminess.

Townieness:  But has he done anything scummy?  Per the posts of yours I've been pointing out, it looks like the answer is no.

Yes completely ignore my arguments for his scumminess once more.

Next up: about face!  Suddenly he's scummy again for his actions, not the mere kook claim!

Again, quit painting contradictions into my statements. It's a pretty complicated issue, and I realize it can be hard to follow my logic sometimes, but I certainly don't need people going through and """finding""" so-called contradictions.

Consequences of early kook claim and scumminess go together to form my vote.

Final summary:  Your initial vote was insubstantial.  You've gone back and forth several times on your reasoning for voting him.  You've directly contradicted yourself on if a kook claim is scummy or not.  You're shuffling around to force a mislynch.  You are scum- go hang.



Others:  I'll get to your posts in a bit.  I want this down before it gets eaten.

Thank you for your input.

[JanusTwoface]

Things that have bugged me about Argembarger:

May be small things, all taken together are the problem.

Spoiler: Reponses to Zathras (click to show/hide)

I also did the accepting vs believing thing... is this scummy of him, but not of me?

It is, but he brought it up and he's the one I'm focusing on.

- If at the end of the day the vote is tied between Arg and Org, and you have the deciding vote, where would you cast it? How about between Arg and Leafsnail, or Leafsnail and Jokerman?

Probably Org, more to prove a point; Argembarger because of why I'm voting him in the first place; and probably Jokerman because he lurks to excess in most games and hasn't posted any particular towny content.

- What is your current read of Toaster, Jim, Toony and Dariush?

Toaster - Haven't paid him enough attention, stastically townie?
Jim - Angrier than usual but looks more townlike right now
Toony - Annoyed the heck out of me with his non-responses, but seems to be doing better now; doubt he would attract that much attention as scum
Dariush - Getting similar vibes to Paranormal 17, so at least town aligned

- Ahem: do you think policy lynches are scummy? (not that a policy lynch is what is advocated for MBP now, but it seems to be part of what "bugs" you about Arg). Or is it only scummy when other people do it?

Depends on the situation and the person. If it's someone that shows no sign of repenting and there's not an even partially obvious scum to lynch (Day 1 unless a really rare case), then it's a great idea. Him suggesting a Policy Lynch of Jokerman-EXE was only very minorly scummy and it would have been / was just as scummy when I suggest Org-lynch. (Yes, town can be scummy too)

If it's about a Policy Lynch on Kooks, that's not a good idea. At the very least, people won't openly claim Kook anymore which means that we're going to have to deal with the crap when inspections turn up and out the inspector.

- Is your vote on Arg a pressure vote to get more from him, or a "he's scum, hang 'im" vote? Your other suspicions are Org (OK), and two unknowns (Leaf: "not enough content", and Joker: "is he even playing?"). Do you actually suspect those last two? Would you vote them if their activity doesn't increase or as pressure to get them to talk, or are you content with the wagon vote? Do you have any suspicions on anyone else?

Hang him. Also, I would love to see Org hang.  Leafsnail is probably the weakest case. It's probably influenced by how long he stuck on me last round rather than solid evidence. I haven't had the time to look deeper into his posts, but if he rose to the top of my list, I would definatly go through them.

Jokerman-EXE is lurking with a claimed excuse, but he *always* lurks in just about every game I've seen him in. It's less that he has any particularly obvious scummy posts and more that he has no townie posts.

WHY do you suspect them, apart from their inactivity? 'Because I suspect them' isn't cutting it.

Some response to this in the response to Zathras. If both they and I survive to Day 2, I'll have more time to look deeper.

Also, how is the fact that there's only two scum leads to probability that he is Kook? 

The best bet for 2 scum is to lie low and not attract any attention to yourself (including for the lying low). With a Kook claim, I can almost guarantee that MBP won't get guarded, has a decent chance of being nightkilled, and/or will probably get inspected by a Telepath / role inspection.

@Janus, what do those things even mean? How do they make me scummy? Why no analysis? I can't defend myself from this; there's nothing to defend! It looks like a bullshit list you threw out to waste time until the end of the day.

There was enough for me to figure out why they were scummy, but longer explinations are included at the end of this post.

Spoiler: Longer explinations of Argembarger comments (click to show/hide)

Reply #64 - Long answer to a relatively simple question, sets the tone that he's still learning, asks Jokerman-EXE about Policy Lynches

Scummy because setting the tone is a great subtle way to survive. Also brought up policy lynches.

Reply #71 - Dopp Enchanter is most powerful because win at LYLO (by which there would have been a MC I'd hope)

This is an unusual choice for the Dopp to be most scared of. I'd put it at a Dopp Leader or Advanced Dopp. The LYLO bit isn't *that* helpful because hopefully there'd be a mass claim before then and we know if the Enchanter brings LYLO early.

Reply #72 - First picture response to Org, unvotes Leafsnail after a lackluster response, doesn't move forward

Pictures are all well and good, but they also serve to distract. The RV was truly a token vote (scum always seem to token vote, often their scum buddy but not always) because he backed off immediately after a rather flimsy response. Also he entered a holding pattern, because of the picture, I didn't notice it the first time around, thus the distraction.

Reply #110 - Asks the same questions (of Dariush and ToonyMan) that others have been asking

Directly repeating others without adding to the attack is scummy.

Reply #119 - YouTube link

Distracting again.

Reply #123 - 'ToonyMan has a custom role'

Trying to get people off on a tangent / putting suspicion on ToonyMan that there really isn't any way to counter.

Reply #141 - 'Don't use meta', starts on the Kook thing, second double post, ties the vote

Scummy because meta is a useful way to find scum. The Kook thing I'm not alone in thinking. The second double post makes it look like he's nervous.

Reply #150 - Thinks Kook should have waited to claim, says 'might as well be a coin toss'

More Kook. Tries to make the odds look better.

Reply #154 - Continues to push 'lynch the kook', long post that doesn't actually say that much

Explaining things in more detail than is strictly necessary, nervousness again.

Reply #164 - More picture responses

Distracting and designed to link them with the idea of being scum (Dopp / Spore Spreader).

Reply #172 - Another really long post, wants to vote ToonyMan but doesn't

Spends a decent part of the post talking about wanting to vote someone, but he doesn't, that's scummy. Especially when his reasons for voting who he was voting are more flimsy.

Reply #176 - Accepting vs believing, looks like he wants more evidence to lynch ToonyMan, still doesn't vote him

Makes an argument that really isn't an argument, still resisting a vote on ToonyMan, both are scummy.

Reply #184 - Requests top three scumpicks from everyone, going for 4 'easy lynches' (as of that point)

Blanket questions look helpful, but aren't necessarily that helpful. Then turns around and goes for the 4 people that look (at that point) like they'd be the easiest to lynch.

[Argembarger]

Orange is me.

Reply #64 - Long answer to a relatively simple question, sets the tone that he's still learning, asks Jokerman-EXE about Policy Lynches

Scummy because setting the tone is a great subtle way to survive. Also brought up policy lynches.
I'm not sure what you mean by "setting the tone". If you want to look at Paranormal 17, I explicitly tell everyone not to go easy on me just because I was new. I was scum that game. Why would I do that now?

Reply #71 - Dopp Enchanter is most powerful because win at LYLO (by which there would have been a MC I'd hope)

This is an unusual choice for the Dopp to be most scared of. I'd put it at a Dopp Leader or Advanced Dopp. The LYLO bit isn't *that* helpful because hopefully there'd be a mass claim before then and we know if the Enchanter brings LYLO early.
Oh snap my choice is different than yours so scummy

Reply #72 - First picture response to Org, unvotes Leafsnail after a lackluster response, doesn't move forward

Pictures are all well and good, but they also serve to distract. The RV was truly a token vote (scum always seem to token vote, often their scum buddy but not always) because he backed off immediately after a rather flimsy response. Also he entered a holding pattern, because of the picture, I didn't notice it the first time around, thus the distraction.
"flimsy response"? He answered the question I asked him... And I'm not sure what you consider the difference between a "random vote" and a "token vote" to be.

Reply #110 - Asks the same questions (of Dariush and ToonyMan) that others have been asking

Directly repeating others without adding to the attack is scummy.
I deny that I wasn't "adding to the attack".

Reply #119 - YouTube link

Distracting again.
Not sure what the big deal is, would you have preferred if I had just simply stated "I don't like this post"?

Reply #123 - 'ToonyMan has a custom role'

Trying to get people off on a tangent / putting suspicion on ToonyMan that there really isn't any way to counter.
Ok now that was just a joke. Besides, Toony didn't need my help to draw suspicion to himself.

Reply #141 - 'Don't use meta', starts on the Kook thing, second double post, ties the vote

Scummy because meta is a useful way to find scum. The Kook thing I'm not alone in thinking. The second double post makes it look like he's nervous.
Meta IS useful to find scum. It is also useful to push a policy lynch without any other justification, which is why I don't like it.
I'm not scummy just because I disagree with you.
lynch all doubleposters?

Reply #150 - Thinks Kook should have waited to claim, says 'might as well be a coin toss'

More Kook. Tries to make the odds look better.
I don't know about you, but I like the odds of judging someone's alignment when they've made a lot of posts and contributions a hell of a lot better than I like the odds of judging someone with barely 5 posts to their name.

Reply #154 - Continues to push 'lynch the kook', long post that doesn't actually say that much

Explaining things in more detail than is strictly necessary, nervousness again.
I'm sorry you aren't interested in what I have to say.

Reply #164 - More picture responses

Distracting and designed to link them with the idea of being scum (Dopp / Spore Spreader).
Again, I don't see the difference between my picture posts and just blandly saying "I think your post was dumb"

Apparantly everyone in this game is utterly distracted by pictures and videos. Clearly, this is the key to a scumwin! Distract with shiny things!

Reply #172 - Another really long post, wants to vote ToonyMan but doesn't

Spends a decent part of the post talking about wanting to vote someone, but he doesn't, that's scummy. Especially when his reasons for voting who he was voting are more flimsy.

Reply #176 - Accepting vs believing, looks like he wants more evidence to lynch ToonyMan, still doesn't vote him

Makes an argument that really isn't an argument, still resisting a vote on ToonyMan, both are scummy.
Imma lump these two together.
Say what you want about my argument for MBP,
but just tell me with a straight face that if I had voted Toony at that point you wouldn't have shouted "OMGUS!!"

Reply #184 - Requests top three scumpicks from everyone, going for 4 'easy lynches' (as of that point)

Blanket questions look helpful, but aren't necessarily that helpful. Then turns around and goes for the 4 people that look (at that point) like they'd be the easiest to lynch.
Sorry my help isn't helpful enough for your tastes;

And have you considered that I went for the 4 people that would be the easiest to lynch, because they were being the scummiest? I don't see how suspecting scummy people makes me scummy.

Thank you for your input.

[JanusTwoface]

I'm not sure what you mean by "setting the tone". If you want to look at Paranormal 17, I explicitly tell everyone not to go easy on me just because I was new. I was scum that game. Why would I do that now?

That's what you said, that you were still learning. Even if you don't intentionally want it, when you say something like that people will react to it.

"flimsy response"? He answered the question I asked him... And I'm not sure what you consider the difference between a "random vote" and a "token vote" to be.

My view on RV is that it's basically bull. Primarily when people vote without any meaning behind it because not voting is scummier. You backed down immediately which makes it look like your vote was just because it's scummier not to rather than actually meaning anything, thus token vote.

Not sure what the big deal is, would you have preferred if I had just simply stated "I don't like this post"?

I would have liked if you had done both. I didn't click the YouTube link.

Meta IS useful to find scum. It is also useful to push a policy lynch without any other justification, which is why I don't like it.
I'm not scummy just because I disagree with you.
lynch all doubleposters?

Pushing a policy lynch without doing anything else is scummy, granted. Lynch all double posters isn't the point, the point is that you've done it several times within a relatively small window. It sticks out.

I don't know about you, but I like the odds of judging someone's alignment when they've made a lot of posts and contributions a hell of a lot better than I like the odds of judging someone with barely 5 posts to their name.

Could you explain this one please? I'm not sure what you mean.

I'm sorry you aren't interested in what I have to say.

I am interested in what you have to say. Just less so in the way you say it. It's at least (much) better than Org / early ToonyMan. It's just that you have a tendency to over-explain.

Distract with shiny things!

I like shiny things!

but just tell me with a straight face that if I had voted Toony at that point you wouldn't have shouted "OMGUS!!"

I don't know how to make you believe that I have a straight face over the internet, but no. I wouldn't have shouted OMGUS. Especially not in this particular case.

And have you considered that I went for the 4 people that would be the easiest to lynch, because they were being the scummiest? I don't see how suspecting scummy people makes me scummy.

Mmm. MBP I can give you, Dariush a little less but sure. Org and Toony were being really scummy but most definately fall under the easy to lynch category.

Just worse because it came right with asking everyone for top three.

[Argembarger]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm not sure what you mean by "setting the tone". If you want to look at Paranormal 17, I explicitly tell everyone not to go easy on me just because I was new. I was scum that game. Why would I do that now?

That's what you said, that you were still learning. Even if you don't intentionally want it, when you say something like that people will react to it.

"flimsy response"? He answered the question I asked him... And I'm not sure what you consider the difference between a "random vote" and a "token vote" to be.

My view on RV is that it's basically bull. Primarily when people vote without any meaning behind it because not voting is scummier. You backed down immediately which makes it look like your vote was just because it's scummier not to rather than actually meaning anything, thus token vote.

Not sure what the big deal is, would you have preferred if I had just simply stated "I don't like this post"?

I would have liked if you had done both. I didn't click the YouTube link.

Meta IS useful to find scum. It is also useful to push a policy lynch without any other justification, which is why I don't like it.
I'm not scummy just because I disagree with you.
lynch all doubleposters?

Pushing a policy lynch without doing anything else is scummy, granted. Lynch all double posters isn't the point, the point is that you've done it several times within a relatively small window. It sticks out.

These are fair enough then.

I don't know about you, but I like the odds of judging someone's alignment when they've made a lot of posts and contributions a hell of a lot better than I like the odds of judging someone with barely 5 posts to their name.

Could you explain this one please? I'm not sure what you mean.

What I mean is this.

One person asks you two times in a game what your opinion of him/her is. The first time s/he asks you, it is very early in the game and nothing much has happened. The second time, it is in the late game and there has been a lot of posts and discussions.

During which time would you be more confident in his/her scumminess or townieship?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm sorry you aren't interested in what I have to say.

I am interested in what you have to say. Just less so in the way you say it. It's at least (much) better than Org / early ToonyMan. It's just that you have a tendency to over-explain.

Distract with shiny things!

I like shiny things!

but just tell me with a straight face that if I had voted Toony at that point you wouldn't have shouted "OMGUS!!"

I don't know how to make you believe that I have a straight face over the internet, but no. I wouldn't have shouted OMGUS. Especially not in this particular case.

And have you considered that I went for the 4 people that would be the easiest to lynch, because they were being the scummiest? I don't see how suspecting scummy people makes me scummy.

Mmm. MBP I can give you, Dariush a little less but sure. Org and Toony were being really scummy but most definately fall under the easy to lynch category.

Just worse because it came right with asking everyone for top three.

These are also fair enough.

I really do appreciate your input, by the way. I may sound insincere when I say it, but it's true.

It's a lot better than having a bunch of votes on me that are just "ehhh, I'll vote you I guess"

[JanusTwoface]

I don't know about you, but I like the odds of judging someone's alignment when they've made a lot of posts and contributions a hell of a lot better than I like the odds of judging someone with barely 5 posts to their name.

Could you explain this one please? I'm not sure what you mean.

What I mean is this.

One person asks you two times in a game what your opinion of him/her is. The first time s/he asks you, it is very early in the game and nothing much has happened. The second time, it is in the late game and there has been a lot of posts and discussions.

During which time would you be more confident in his/her scumminess or townieship?

That bit makes sense, not how I originally read it though.  The part that originally bothered me:

I think claiming it after an investigation reveals a Dopp result is much better, because then we have, ideally, several days worth of posts by them to analyze to determine if they are telling the truth or not. Claiming it so early might as well be a coin toss.

A coin toss implies a 50/50 chance. Are you saying that they're 50/50 town/scum if claimed as early as they say?