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Author Topic: Scientology  (Read 4532 times)

Nikov

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Re: Scientology
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2010, 04:56:14 pm »

I don't think you understand what the Council of Nicaea was.

Well and I think you don't understand what the Council of Nicaea was.

*shrugs* Why do you think so? or maybe we can agree to disagree. Moving way far off topic also hehe.

As I understand your position, the Council was to correct loose ends in the New Testament. However, the Council as I understand it was to bring the various leaders of the early Roman church together to tie up loose ends in theology, specifically making decisions about things like the Trinity, divinity of Christ, and so on. The Gospels were certainly being read from during the council, but they were not editing it.

However I do understand the sentiment that the Bible has gotten distorted due to translation; however I do not hold that it is done deliberately. There are some pretty stark differences in subtext and meaning when you go from Hebrew to English. Specifically I'd point out the book of Job, which most modern Christians take as a literal account but in Hebrew, as a scholar of the text, it becomes apparent it is a parable of sorts about why bad things happen to good people. That was a major point of discussion in ancient Jewish schools. Job's four friends all incidentally come from a town featuring a major school of Jewish thought, and a modern Christian reading it won't understand the subtley.

I'd actually like to attend a synagoge if I were able to. I imagine a good rabbi can bring out some surprising insights about the Old Testament.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Scientology
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2010, 05:19:55 pm »


Quote
I'd point out the book of Job, which most modern Christians take as a literal account but in Hebrew, as a scholar of the text, it becomes apparent it is a parable of sorts about why bad things happen to good people

... actually, I think that's the most popular interpretation in general...
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Nikov

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Re: Scientology
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2010, 05:59:37 pm »

I used to view it as a literal story, but now see the subtext.
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AntiAntiMatter

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Re: Scientology
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2010, 06:10:00 pm »

Scientology is a legitimate belief system, no matter how stupid. The Church of Scientology, on the other hand, uses the belief system of Scientology to scam people out of their money, while simultaneously enslaving them. They are trying to get as much money, power, and followers as possible, while attempting to destroy (by any means necessary) any information that does not paint them or their beliefs in a favorable light. By all rights, the organization should have been banned already.
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Tsarwash

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Re: Scientology
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2010, 04:32:33 am »

It's not really fair to attack Nikov as he is banned at the moment (for anti-social behaviour in the forum) and cannot reply. But then again, we have to ask ourselves would that stop him doing it if the roles were reversed ?
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Grakelin

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Re: Scientology
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2010, 04:39:01 am »

There was some discussion on this earlier, so here are the different forms of religion:

New Religious Movement: A really keen interest to us when we look at different kinds of societies. Many sociologists of religion will argue that our societies in Canada are not less religious than they used to be a couple of generations ago, but different in the focus of their religious beliefs. Old traditions are crumbling, but new ones are coming to replace them.

A New Religious Movement (NRM) is defined as an informal group without defined structure. They come about for a variety of reasons, most often emerging around around an authoritatian and charismatic leaders. In the United States, Sarah Palin is clearly very religious (though the Tea Party movement is largely political, though possibly religious), but also a charismatic leader. People follow her, despite the lack of logic and rationality, neither of which play a role, which is what is interesting to social sciences. When you're a religious organization, it doesn't have to make sense. If it's your Faith, that's all you need.

NRMs isolate members and suppress rational thought. Some of the debate in the US over their last political elections was not rational in any way. NRMs usually disband once the leader dies or disappears, as they are effectively what held it together.

Sect: Small religious body with exclusive or voluntary membership that is aloof or hostile to the larger society. They go along with the fundamental teachings, but are unhappy with the direction things are going, so will go and form their own groups, sometimes growing so disconnected with the rest of society that they don't want much to do with it. They are formed when a group breaks from a larger religious group.

Church: If you drive around Waterloo right now, you will see a bunch of churches being built or newly built. Religion is certainly a growing enterprise. A Church is defined as an institution that brings together a moral community of believers in formal worship and integrates itself within the larger secular world. They are most prevalent in societies with a high degree of religious pluralism. A pluralistic society is a society where all sorts of viewpoints are co-existing and participating in society. Canada has a tremendous amount of religious pluralism. Most religions are represented by somebody in this country.

Ecclesia: a state religion, which many nations have. They have ascribed membership. When a country attaches itself and its identity to a particular religion, this is what we call it. Examples include the Catholic Church in Italy, Islam in Iran/Saudi Arabia/Syria/Others, Lutheran Church of Sweden, and Anglican Church of England (of which the Queen is the Head).

Denomination: socially accepted religious body that has bureaucratic characteristics, similar to those of the church. They are usually IN a church, sort of a sub-group within the church. A way to think about this is that within Christianity, there is Protestantism, but in Protestantism there are Uniteds, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc., who do things in a slightly different way. They are self-governing and seen as a midpoint between church and sect. Dominations usually get along with each other but don't necessarily want to have religious ceremonies together.




Source: These are notes I took in Sociology.


That all said, Scientology is, indeed, a Church, and not a cult or NRM. No matter how much you hate them.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 04:41:41 am by Grakelin »
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Scientology
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2010, 04:54:04 am »

I don't think Catholicism has official character in Italy anymore.
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Grakelin

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Re: Scientology
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2010, 02:50:33 pm »

It's nice that all you got out of that contribution was a perceived chance to prove me wrong about something slight, but Sweden and England aren't officially controlled by their particular demoninations either, so maybe you should try learning context, first. Indeed, out of the four examples given (not by me, incidentally, but by a guy with a Ph. D. I just type all the important bits ad verbatim), Italy is the second most prominent example of an Ecclesia.

Great that you're trying to think critically, though. That's the first step in analyzing things effectively. Now, what did you have to say about the topic at hand?
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I am have extensive knowledge of philosophy and a strong morality
Okay, so, today this girl I know-Lauren, just took a sudden dis-interest in talking to me. Is she just on her period or something?

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Scientology
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2010, 02:56:30 pm »

Very well. Going by your definitions of the subject, Scientology is not a NRM, at least not now, given that it's original founder is dead. I suppose a Sect/Cult would be the most appropriate for them, given the group's hostility towards their detractors and non-members, although they are almost certainly trying to become seen as a Church, but they by no means are one. I say this because the group is openly hostile to the outside secular world rather than living in tandem with it. The group's hostility towards outsiders and blatently harmful exploitation of its members makes me think that the government should shut them down before more people die because of them.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 02:58:17 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Scientology
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2010, 02:57:56 pm »

(A sect is part of a larger religion right?)
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Scientology
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2010, 02:59:46 pm »

(A sect is part of a larger religion right?)
And a church is technically only for christianity, but I'm going on Grakelin's definitions here.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 03:02:20 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

Criptfeind

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Re: Scientology
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2010, 03:05:44 pm »

Okay yeah no.

Don't be like that man. You know that Church is interchangeable with temple and what not. No reason to be so anal about the terms.
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Grakelin

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Re: Scientology
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2010, 03:07:07 pm »

Quote
A Church is defined as an institution that brings together a moral community of believers in formal worship and integrates itself within the larger secular world.

It's a Church. An example of a Sect would be if the Order of Tom Cruise broke off from the rest of Scientology because they disagreed with the way things were going and wanted no part in it.

Other mainstream religions (such as the Fundamentalist forms of Christianity and Islam) are also hostile towards others, and many people believe that they are exploitative of their members. So how come we don't attack them, and pressure our government to shut them down? Well, some people do, and members of this forum (statistically leaning towards the left side of the political spectrum, as recent polls by Nikov have shown) mock them mercilessly for 'xenophobia'. I don't want to throw around the word 'prejudice' too lightly here, but a lack of an ability to tolerate another faith because they seem ridiculous to us is fairly ethnocentric.


And please. I didn't make these up. These are sociological definitions. They probably sound like Christian terms because the original theorists were a bunch of Western European white Christians and biased in their writings. But two hundred years later, the terms are still in use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociological_classifications_of_religious_movements#Church_and_ecclesia


I'd like to pretend that I know more than Max Weber and Emile Durkheim, too, but it's just not true.


The 'Church' here is not a physical building. It is an institution.
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smigenboger

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Re: Scientology
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2010, 03:15:38 pm »

I love Scientology and everything it stands for. People always speak ill of it, but it has completely changed my life! I'm surrounded by friends who care for me, and I don't have to live in fear anymore. Whoever says bad things about it clearly doesn't know anything about it and should sign up too!!
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Criptfeind

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Re: Scientology
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2010, 03:18:33 pm »

Okay. So it is not all bad then. You have to admit there is quite a bit of corruption in the upper echelons.
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