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[Tsarwash]

This one is bound to turn into a bitter and horrid argument, but anyway.

Some people seem to think this way.  'Why should you be allowed in a way that offends or affects my religous viewpoint.' i.e. I believe in this, and the way that you are behaving is against it, so you should cease. I would like the position to be reversed, so that people can have religous viewpoints and exercise them, only if it doesn't affect my behavior. So say Muslims don't like pork, some Christians don't like Booze. These views are fine as long as they don't try to start exercising them publically in a way that starts affecting the way that other people live thier lives. It's absolutely dandy that you don't like or approve of people eating pork, as long as you don't start doing anything about that that would stop in any way people's right to eat pork.

In the same way, my 'athiesm' is a religous viewpoint, but I cannot excercise it in a way that affects other people's personal religous viewpoints. If I go around saying that there definately is no god and you're all decieved for having your beliefs, than that is eating into the personal space of believers.

I don't care that 90 percent of a population might think one way or another. I just care that people's freedoms to do things that don't actually affect others' lives are being restricted across the globe because certain people get offended by it. I think that this way of thinking is hopefully becoming outdated and will become a thing of the past. Homosexuality, contaception, diet, some drugs, moderate drink, the entertainment that we watch. These are all things that mostly do not affect the freedoms of others in society, and I think that the freedom of choice in these should be protected in law. It's ridiculous that in many countries you cannot shop for certain things on a certain day because that day is sacred to some other people. That is the kind of restriction I would expect in primitive societies, not the ones that we live in.

[3]

I would like the position to be reversed

It is reversed. To be frank, I think to suggest that it isn't is an extremely ignorant statement to make. You appear to be letting the actions of perhaps less than one percent of the religious population sway your views, as I've never met anyone in person who acts the way you describe.

[Tsarwash]

If it was reversed, then say homosexuality would not be illegal or restricted in many countries and states across the world. A lot of freedoms are restricted globally because of religous beliefs.

[Duke 2.0]

If it was reversed, then say homosexuality would not be illegal or restricted in many countries and states across the world. A lot of freedoms are restricted globally because of religous beliefs.

You mean Cultural Beliefs. It's because of the general cultural ideal that people take such harsh actions, using religion as an excuse to justify it. It's very difficult to justify violence and hate in most religions without citing some small bits that seem to contradict the main message or ideal of their god.

[3]

Besides, the vast majority of said countries are considered developing and it is likely necessary to stabilise them before they can be "enlightened" and become aware of a "better" system of civil rights.

[Tsarwash]

You may be right there. But considering what the Bible and the Koran and the Torah says about homosexuality, it's difficult to distinguish between cultural and religous beliefs. I'm not saying all homophobia comes from religeous texts or teachings, but they must have played a part.

I'm certainly no expert in religeous beliefs or studies, or the effect that they have had on societies up to the present.

Edit again. You might well be right about it being largely cultural. I've been looking at this page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_laws_of_the_world#Asia  And apart from the Muslim countries, it seems to be regional. Homosexuality is probably a bed example. It's interesting to note that some countires such as Vietnam have never had laws against it, and most of South America made it legal well over a hundred years ago. In Asia it is tolerated in most non-Muslim countries. It's interesting to note that many developing countries have more tolerent attitudes than many western or developed countries.

[3]

It's interesting to note that many developing countries have more tolerent attitudes than many western or developed countries.

Err, how so? I see some, but not many.

[Ephemeriis]

I would like the position to be reversed

It is reversed. To be frank, I think to suggest that it isn't is an extremely ignorant statement to make. You appear to be letting the actions of perhaps less than one percent of the religious population sway your views, as I've never met anyone in person who acts the way you describe.

It is not reversed.  And I'm sick of religious folks claiming that I'm stepping on their toes with my atheism (no, I'm not claiming that's what you're doing) when, in fact, it's their religious beliefs constraining my actions.

Take a look at the whole gay marriage battle.  Sure, there's some generic cultural "gay is icky" milling around...  But it's largely fueled by religious folks who can't handle change.  And even the generic "gay is icky" is largely based on religious teaching.

Hell, to be completely honest, there's no good reason why the government should even care how many people I marry.  Make me buy the right licenses...  Tax us accordingly...  But who cares what your dusty old book claims about how many men can marry how many women?

How about what things consenting adults can do together?  Plenty of states have laws against sodomy, or even fellatio and cunnilingus.  Those laws are based on religious views that enjoying sex is a sin and the only reason to have sex is for procreation.  No, folks don't generally worry too much about those laws...  But there have been some fairly recent cases where folks were arrested for practicing safe, sane, and consensual BDSM.

And then there's prostitution, which is largely illegal.  Generally due to fundamentally religious issues.

And there's all the obscenity laws which generally boil down to religious issues.

There are some states where it is illegal to sell alcohol on Sunday...  And other counties where it's illegal to sell alcohol at all...  Both obviously stemming from religious beliefs.

Abortion is another great topic.  Regardless of whether you agree with it or not, it is going to happen.  And religious opposition continues to make it difficult and dangerous - leading to far more deaths than are necessary.

Sex education in general is suffering horribly due to religious opposition.

You can call it "Cultural Beliefs" if you want...  But that doesn't remove the onus from religion.  These "Cultural Beliefs" are inspired by religious indoctrination.  The only reason anybody thinks it should be illegal for two guys to get married is because they've had two thousand years of listening to priests tell them it's a sin.

[Tsarwash]

It's interesting to note that many developing countries have more tolerent attitudes than many western or developed countries.

Err, how so? I see some, but not many.

Did I say many? sorrry, i meant some.

[3]

These "Cultural Beliefs" are inspired by religious indoctrination.

No, that's... really not true at all. It's the opposite way around. Why do you think that most of the restrictions that religion supposedly places on people exist? It's not a case of someone just walking in and saying "hey guys, God told me to tell you that he doesn't want gays around". Human culture has existed for far, far longer than any of the religions we know today.

[Leafsnail]

No, that's... really not true at all. It's the opposite way around. Why do you think that most of the restrictions that religion supposedly places on people exist? It's not a case of someone just walking in and saying "hey guys, God told me to tell you that he doesn't want gays around". Human culture has existed for far, far longer than any of the religions we know today.

So... religion helps entrench old, outdated veiwpoints?

[3]

Pretty much, yes.

[Tsarwash]

These "Cultural Beliefs" are inspired by religious indoctrination.

No, that's... really not true at all. It's the opposite way around. Why do you think that most of the restrictions that religion supposedly places on people exist? It's not a case of someone just walking in and saying "hey guys, God told me to tell you that he doesn't want gays around". Human culture has existed for far, far longer than any of the religions we know today.

That is a whole different discussion altogether and one that I suspect we may not solve here entirely. I suspect that in many societies, it is impossible to distinguish between religous and cultural sensibilities. I may well be completely wrong here, but I don't think there are any societies around, nor have there ever been that have not had some kind of religous beliefs intertwined within their culture. I think that many anthapologists and religous historians have looked into this, and some have come to the conclusion that religion is 'hardwired' into human history and culture. But saying that, it would be stupid to say that local trends do not allow societies to mold the religions around their culture. South America is a pretty Catholic place, but homosexuality has been legal there far longer then much of Europe.

[Muz]

Well, if you live in a country with an official national religion, it should follow the teachings of that religion. If you lived in a 90%+ Christian country, it'd be fair not to open shops on Sunday. If it was a 90%+ Muslim country, it's fair not to open shops on Friday or not to sell alcohol/pork. If you live in a 90%+ atheist country, it's fair not to build churches and temples in public areas.

Those are pretty much how the majority wish to live, and the minority has to accept that. Or sadly, they'd have to get out. However, these days, there are very few countries that go that way. Even with a state religion, it's often like 70% of the populace, the others being atheists, agnostics, muslims, or christians. Secular governments are free to live without any religious influence whatsoever, but those where the public chose a religion will have to stick with one.

But... when you automatically assume that the same things are bad, then that's a problem. I don't care too much about homosexual marriage, unless there's significant financial benefits to getting married. It's a minor issue. But whipping for premarital sex, censorship, banning headscarves and prayer is a more serious matter.


Religion itself is a good thing. It's a form of philosophy, makes people think about the world, what lies beyond the universe, and gives people a meaning to their lives. Even if your religious belief is that there is no God(s), it makes you think about the bigger picture as a whole.

But moralism is evil. It tries to use religion as a way to get their political beliefs in. If someone doesn't like smoking, they claim it's against religion. Someone doesn't like smut or homosexuals.. fall back to religion.

Just about every religion spread through kindness, not by forcing their beliefs. The Islamic empires back during the Renaissance were the most religiously tolerant there, and crumbled shortly after they became more intolerant. They spread their beliefs far and wide by not forcing them. And part of the major support towards Atheism in modern society is in opposing the morality forced by religious institutions.

[Heron TSG]

my 'atheism' is a religious viewpoint

*facedesk* Isn't that exactly what it's not? I personally became an atheist because every religion I'd ever heard of (that included a deity) was nonsensical (in my opinion). I don't believe in a god, and I don't follow any of the religions that don't, so am I then an areligionist?

Well, if you live in a country with an official national religion, it should follow the teachings of that religion. If you lived in a 90%+ Christian country, it'd be fair not to open shops on Sunday.

But what if your country is also capitalist? Can your own citizens sell things on Sunday? Can foreign companies? If you're living in a country where foreign companies are common (Such as the U.S., but we don't have a national religion), then are you supposed to impose your culture on to them, when they may think nothing of making money seven days a week?