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Author Topic: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans  (Read 22995 times)

TolyK

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Re: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2010, 01:28:29 pm »

^+1

embark points sounds kinda weird given the realism of this game... though it might not correlate exactly...
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ZebioLizard2

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Re: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2010, 01:56:43 pm »

Since toady is adding different starting reasons (religious and the like)

You could possibly get a discount on things based on what you are doing. Like if you are sent out on a mining expedition to find rare minerals. You'd get cheaper picks and forge stuff

If you were sent to find fertile land. Cheaper farming tools and the like. Along with various discounts based upon reasonings.
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irmo

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Re: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2010, 05:39:16 pm »

There will always be extremists on both the left and the right, but reality generally lies somewhere in the middle. I believe there is room in this game for the concept of public property, or community property, owned and operated from the coffers of the fort as a distinct entity from the dwarves. Currently the game is almost exclusively a communist, left-wing view that everything belongs to The People, save a few small private items. Even to the point of being too much so, begging for a little capitolist innovation.

Fine, as long as it (1) makes economic sense and (2) doesn't disconnect the player's controls.

1. There's no reason to have a fractional reserve banking system in a community of seven guys living in a hole in the ground. This goes to what Dante said about the economy needing to kick in at some point.

2. When I order a tunnel dug out somewhere, the dwarves damn well do it, and don't say "No, it would be more profitable for me to open a cheese shop." This isn't incompatible with the idea of a cash or credit economy. However, if there is some kind of free market economy, then the player needs the tools to exert precise control. To name a few:
- Dwarves should never do any of the following jobs without being explicitly told to: Mining of any kind; construction of any kind; link mechanisms; pull levers. They should also never place or remove workshops, doors, floodgates, or traps except in their personal rooms.
- Forbid designations must be respected. If the player forbids a dwarf's personal property, the dwarf can't refuse. He might be automatically compensated in fortress credit, though.
- Only the player can designate rooms, and dwarves can't own or rent areas that aren't designated as rooms. This may require more kinds of rooms to exist, such as a "garden" where dwarves can build private farm plots.
- Labor settings need to be respected somehow. Maybe labor settings apply to fortress-ordered work, and dwarves do private work in their free time which may fall outside their labor settings.

Come to think of it, this could be a good way to have the economy incrementally switch on: As the fortress matures, the percentage of dwarf-hours needed to keep it running naturally decreases, and dwarves will fill in some of their free time with personal projects (crafts, improving their space, or trading) in addition to socializing the way they do now. So unless you're building a megaproject, training a huge militia, or suffering a labor shortage for some reason, your dwarves will eventually start making things to sell to each other or to caravans. They will build skill doing this, and will tend to do it in areas that use their existing skills, so you could sort of shape the private sector economy by training dwarves in skills you want to see.

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This might put the player in the Fun position of having enough dwarves, but being too low on resources to pay them for any work. Here again, the government makes a promise for future delivery of goods, in the form of promisary coin. The idea being that in better times, the dwarves can come and trade those coins in to the Treasurer for meals, crops, or metals that they might want for their personal use.

This is the old economy system, going back to the 2d version: dwarves are paid in fortress credit, which they use to buy their stuff. There were some problems with the implementation (notably the fixed price structure for rent) but as an economic model it was a good fit for a small isolated outpost.

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Then we have a system with at least two forms of currency, the food coins from the farmer, and the unspecified coins from the treasury. The treasury coins need more clarity, so let's say they trade for a bar of metal, as chosen by the player when he mints them.

I think you're getting your wires crossed here. First, the point of having a banker (someone who creates money for the community) is to avoid having Farmer Fikod write his own credit, which is then of questionable value. Instead, at the start of the season, Farmer Fikod writes a hundred plump helmet IOUs to Baron Bomrek in exchange for coin (or paper money or a letter of credit or whatever) to pay his expenses for the year, and then at harvest gives a hundred plump helmets to the Baron, who sells them back to the community.

Second, I'm not sure I see the point of coins backed by bars of metal. A coin is a bar of metal. The coins, in this case, are backed by the entire fortress economy.

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The player is free to mint way more coins than there is metal to trade, which brings up more opportunities for Fun. If a dwarf goes to cash one in when there's no metal to back it up, what happens? "Come back later" can get old, and so it should probably cause an unhappy thought. So if the player chooses to set up unbacked coin, and not bother to back it up later, then the citizens could experience a lot of bad thoughts as they attempt to trade their money in for metal. They might even be less inclined to accept government coin while they are experiencing a bad thought from unbacked currency.

Why are all these citizens trying to trade their fortress coins in for metal bars? What they should be doing, if they have a surplus, is trading in for luxury goods, better rooms, materials for crafting, and so on. If none of that stuff is available, then they should start getting angry over being underpaid for their work.
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forsaken1111

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Re: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2010, 07:34:49 pm »

Instead of needing to make your own coins..You're given an amount every so long by the mountainhome. (Depends on scenario of leaving) This most likely would be for a start where a certain area has been found with good stuff the original mountainhome wants. There would be different leverage of coins generally. The mountainhomes original coinage would count for more due to being from a stable economy, and would be more "official" but you can mint your own. (Maybe a limit set by the king, going above it would generally be like counterfeiting and piss him off a bit)

Infact, make it so that your starting amount is what BUYS you all the goods (The expedition screen) that you take with you to the new area. Whatever you have left is the amount of money that will be given to you in coins.
Even better, you aren't granted free money but you are given coins in trade from caravans if your trade value exceeds what you're asking for. Caravans would be the main source of coinage prior to establishing mints.
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AngleWyrm

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Re: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2010, 08:23:08 pm »

1. There's no reason to have a fractional reserve banking system in a community of seven guys living in a hole in the ground. This goes to what Dante said about the economy needing to kick in at some point.
If property has an owner, as in the leader takes ownership of the wagon, then there is already a system of barter and trade in place. The player trades the currently available food/drink for services, and no money is needed. The need for money only develops later, when the  leader runs out of food/booze to trade, but still needs some work to be done.

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2. When I order a tunnel dug out somewhere, the dwarves damn well do it, and don't say "No, it would be more profitable for me to open a cheese shop."
If the player isn't paying off his debts, then the dwarves may indeed become unresponsive to the offer of yet more metal-backed coin. Perhaps if they are currently experiencing a bad thought from trying to cash in coins and being rejected.
 
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Second, I'm not sure I see the point of coins backed by bars of metal. A coin is a bar of metal. The coins, in this case, are backed by the entire fortress economy.
Currently a coin does not equal a bar of metal. A coin cannot be smelted into a bar and subsequently converted into a gold statue. Thus a coin is not actually a bar of metal. It could, however, be a promisary note for a bar of metal. Also, the phrase "backed by the economy" seems to be completely free of any meaning whatsoever. What then, I'm going to trade my coin in for an economy? A slice of economy? How then do I make use of this economy once I've got it? See? No meaning. I don't want to buy a vague idea, I want a brand new metal figurine of the God of Newts or whatever.

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Why are all these citizens trying to trade their fortress coins in for metal bars? What they should be doing, if they have a surplus, is trading in for luxury goods, better rooms, materials for crafting, and so on. If none of that stuff is available, then they should start getting angry over being underpaid for their work.
Because they are dwarves, and turning metal into stuff is dwarfy. And owning metal that's been turned into stuff is dwarfy. Thus the metal makes for luxury goods, better rooms, and materials for crafting and so on.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 08:43:01 pm by AngleWyrm »
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Andeerz

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Re: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans
« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2010, 09:23:42 pm »

Currently a coin does not equal a bar of metal. A coin cannot be smelted into a bar and subsequently converted into a gold statue. Thus a coin is not actually a bar of metal.

You can't?  I wish you could.  Then the currency could be a form of commodity money.  But it would be cool if there was the ability to have fiat currency, too.
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AngleWyrm

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Re: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2010, 10:31:21 pm »

I forget the number but it's something like 100~500 coins for a bar. If the transformation were reversible, then money could serve as it's own precious item to be sought after and melted down into various goodies.
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irmo

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Re: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2010, 11:52:47 pm »

If property has an owner, as in the leader takes ownership of the wagon, then there is already a system of barter and trade in place. The player trades the currently available food/drink for services, and no money is needed. The need for money only develops later, when the  leader runs out of food/booze to trade, but still needs some work to be done.

That assumes that the leader owns everything in the wagon, and that he represents the player in some sense, neither of which is necessarily true. That's a minor point, though.
 
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Currently a coin does not equal a bar of metal. A coin cannot be smelted into a bar and subsequently converted into a gold statue. Thus a coin is not actually a bar of metal. It could, however, be a promisary note for a bar of metal. Also, the phrase "backed by the economy" seems to be completely free of any meaning whatsoever. What then, I'm going to trade my coin in for an economy? A slice of economy? How then do I make use of this economy once I've got it? See? No meaning. I don't want to buy a vague idea, I want a brand new metal figurine of the God of Newts or whatever.

First, your sarcasm is not necessary.

Second, a coin is, physically, a bar of metal, and should be convertible to other metal objects. This is one of the major reasons to use metal coinage, after all.

Third, I assumed this was clear, but what I mean by "backed by the economy" is that the coin derives its value from all the products of the economy that one could buy with the coin.

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Because they are dwarves, and turning metal into stuff is dwarfy. And owning metal that's been turned into stuff is dwarfy. Thus the metal makes for luxury goods, better rooms, and materials for crafting and so on.

Fair enough. I think I was misled by your focus on metal bars as the only thing they could buy with their fortress-credit money. They should be buying all kinds of stuff.
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AngleWyrm

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Re: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2010, 12:58:24 pm »

I assumed this was clear, but what I mean by "backed by the economy" is that the coin derives its value from all the products of the economy that one could buy with the coin.

I'm still a little fuzzy on this point. What do I get if I give back the coin to the minter?
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irmo

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Re: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans
« Reply #69 on: November 12, 2010, 01:44:50 pm »

I'm still a little fuzzy on this point. What do I get if I give back the coin to the minter?

Something of your choice (with a current price of one coin of that denomination) from the fortress stockpiles.
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King_of_the_weasels

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Re: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans
« Reply #70 on: November 12, 2010, 07:16:52 pm »

Why would you return a coin to the minter in the first place? And do you mean just created objects, or the entire wealth of a fortress? Say 17000 dwarfbucks or some other number.
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forsaken1111

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Re: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans
« Reply #71 on: November 12, 2010, 07:19:18 pm »

You give a coin back to the fortress in return for goods or services. Rent, food, a bed...

Is this really that difficult a concept?
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King_of_the_weasels

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Re: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2010, 08:03:38 pm »

I don't have the means to write out a long description *on a phone* but dwarves should be able to work in anyway they wish, but the fortress can contract specific dwarves for a period of time; months, seasons, years, etc.  And contracted dwarves get paid a large one time
sum, and food, rent, ammentities are free until the contract ends.  Also miners should work like the military, atleast in dwarven settlements.
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AngleWyrm

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Re: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2010, 09:13:04 pm »

The military is a case of a service that applies to all, and can't really exclude individuals for non-payment. So it should come out of tax/rent. Miners offer a service that is similar in that the work they do generally benefits everyone. So it makes sense that their services also are paid for from tax/rent.

What service is individual? The cook makes meals that are consumed individually, and the clothier makes clothes that are worn individually. Even doctor visitations could be charged to the individual within this game.

I'm still a little fuzzy on this point. What do I get if I give back the coin to the minter?
Something of your choice (with a current price of one coin of that denomination) from the fortress stockpiles.
Self-referential self-deceiving gobbldygook, I say. "What's a coin buy?" "A coin's worth." Yeah, no shit it buys a coins worth, how much is a coins worth worth? The problem is the answer given does not promise to trade a set amount. It would be a clear promise if instead it were one bar of metal. Or one crop. Relying on the coin's definition to define it is somewhat messed up. It makes room for the size of the unit of measure change, thus destroying its value as a tool for measurement. Maybe not such a good thing.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 09:39:37 pm by AngleWyrm »
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King_of_the_weasels

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Re: Abundance of Resources, Metalworking, Improved Economy, and Caravans
« Reply #74 on: November 12, 2010, 10:02:17 pm »

Game wise, copper is 1, silver is 5, and I think gold is 10 or something, so you should only be allowed to mint coins equal to your fortresses wealth and the price of objects is based on the amount of coins in a fortresses economy.  Coins that are from outside the fortress can still be used, but any excess is taken out of the hands of the dwarves and put into a vault until wealth allows them to be used, simply to prevent the coins actual worth from changing.  Granted I only raised more questions and even I am not sure if that would work, I'll leave it to everyone to correct me.
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