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[heydude6]

The conscious mind is defined as the part of the brain that is responsible for self-awareness. There exist scientific tests to determine whether animals are self-aware, like the famous mirror test. Sheep, cows and almost literally every other animal except for dolphins and apes fail these tests.

I should add that elephants and crows also succeed on those tests. Just so you don’t feel completely alone.

[bloop_bleep]

I should add that elephants and crows also succeed on those tests. Just so you don’t feel completely alone.

Yes, but, we don't exactly factory-farm elephants and crows, do we?

We poach the former occasionally, which I'll agree is horrible, but the average American doesn't eat gourmet elephant steaks every dinner, so it's not as relevant.

[hector13]

The conscious mind is defined as the part of the brain that is responsible for self-awareness. There exist scientific tests to determine whether animals are self-aware, like the famous mirror test. Sheep, cows and almost literally every other animal except for dolphins and apes fail these tests. In this case I do not think that farm animals are truly fully alive like humans are, and furthermore are unable to experience suffering like humans can, and so ultimately I do not care very much about the activation of a whatever neural pattern in their brains corresponds to "pain", which really only exists as an evolutionary mechanism to stop the organisms from harming themselves.

There’s some interesting logical hoops you’re jumping through there to arrive at your conclusion, in particular lack of self-awareness means something is less alive, but hey, opinions and that. All I ask is they be informed, of which this one appears to be partial.

Again, I ask you how you can know animals can or cannot experience emotions, ‘cause self-awareness /=/ emotions, and your initial explanation of pain suggested you feel it’s more emotion-based than physical.

As a curiosity-inspired aside, what would you think about eating animals that are self-aware, by your standard?

[BlackFlyme]

Obviously the only consciousness you can be sure exists is your own, but I doubt even you would say that other humans are not self-aware and thus do not "truly" feel pain. Presumably you consider other humans to be conscious by examining the symptoms of your own consciousness and seeing them in other humans.

I had a psychology teacher once who believed some baffling shit. Practically preached nihilism and meaninglessness, and that nothing matters and altruism and goodness don't exist. Even feeling good about doing a good deed or feeling that you need to do a good deed for nothing in return is an evil ulterior motive that destroys the concept of altruism.

The conscious mind is defined as the part of the brain that is responsible for self-awareness. There exist scientific tests to determine whether animals are self-aware, like the famous mirror test. Sheep, cows and almost literally every other animal except for dolphins and apes fail these tests. In this case I do not think that farm animals are truly fully alive like humans are, and furthermore are unable to experience suffering like humans can, and so ultimately I do not care very much about the activation of a whatever neural pattern in their brains corresponds to "pain", which really only exists as an evolutionary mechanism to stop the organisms from harming themselves.

Except we do need to continue looking for more methods to test animal intelligence if this is something people really want determined, as not all animals use their senses in the same way. For example, dogs will fail a mirror test, but will respond to an olfactory based self-cognition test.

There's once been a small study where ants have managed to pass the mirror test, recognizing dyes that have been placed on them when given a mirror to see themselves with, and scratching at themselves rather than the mirror when they look in it, but we'd hardly call ants intelligent.

[Yoink]

I personally think that keeping animals in order to eat them sucks for them, but not as much as being permanently extinct would.

I have to disagree there. If the only way they can be alive is to be kept in captivity and bred as food, aren't they better off extinct?
Plus there would most likely always be decent populations of them in places that aren't farms - I'm pretty sure that's the case for most such species already.


@bloop_bleep: that logic is honestly so bizarre I am not even sure where to begin. Like... what? A cow doesn't recognise its reflection, so the pain and distress it feels in a factory farm don't count as real suffering and so it's all hunky-dory?
Jesus. To be honest I think your "argument" for meat eating is even more horrifying than the people who just shrug and say "IDGAF". What makes you think humans are so different? Just because we have all our well-developed neuroses and often feel pain and fear for reasons that are pretty much invented by ourselves, that activate "whatever neural pattern in [our] brains corresponds to "pain"", that makes us superior?   



I get tired of arguing this topic all the damn time in the emotion threads here, but someone has to be the voice of reason... even if I'm generally just shouting into the wind.     

[KittyTac]

I do not care about farm animals. That's it. Only fully sentient species like humans, apes, and dolphins matter to me.

Plus, meat is delicious. I would not abandon it for the reason of "but dese pigs r suffereing!!111!11" (which is what your argument is).

[Yoink]

Well you see, that's just a basic lack of empathy. At least that (whilst horrifying) is easier to comprehend than Bleep_Bloops theories.   

Also I never really got the huge appeal of meat in the first place... the kinds considered tastiest are the ones that you know are most unhealthy.    

[KittyTac]

Well you see, that's just a basic lack of empathy. At least that (whilst horrifying) is easier to comprehend than Bleep_Bloops theories.   

Also I never really got the huge appeal of meat in the first place... the kinds considered tastiest are the ones that you know are most unhealthy.    

Yeah, that's right. I have no empathy for farm animals. But at least I am not actively trying to convert you. Preferences are preferences, after all.

[bloop_bleep]

someone has to be the voice of reason... even if I'm generally just shouting into the wind.

In that case, please impart onto me, O Holy Arbiter of All Knowledge, the key to reason and wisdom which apparently only you possess. 

I honestly feel we should end this derail here. Philosophy arguments don't turn out well for anyone. All I know is that I will continue to eat meat and you will likely continue to not eat meat, and no amount of forum arguments will change that.

[KittyTac]

someone has to be the voice of reason... even if I'm generally just shouting into the wind.

In that case, please impart onto me, O Holy Arbiter of All Knowledge, the key to reason and wisdom which apparently only you possess. 

I honestly feel we should end this derail here. Philosophy arguments don't turn out well for anyone. All I know is that I will continue to eat meat and you will likely continue to not eat meat, and no amount of forum arguments will change that.

I support this. Let's stop this argument before one or both of us get banned.

[IcyTea31]

I had a psychology teacher once who believed some baffling shit. Practically preached nihilism and meaninglessness, and that nothing matters and altruism and goodness don't exist. Even feeling good about doing a good deed or feeling that you need to do a good deed for nothing in return is an evil ulterior motive that destroys the concept of altruism.

Did you tell them to go read Nietzsche? Or Kierkegaard, or Sartre? Or for the altruism specifically and not just the nihilism, Rousseau? Though those philosophies are pretty outdated and mostly supplanted, at least it's not freaking nihilism.

[Arcvasti]

I personally think that keeping animals in order to eat them sucks for them, but not as much as being permanently extinct would.

I have to disagree there. If the only way they can be alive is to be kept in captivity and bred as food, aren't they better off extinct?

Eh, maybe. It's not the being bred for food part that's awful so much as the conditions in modern factory farms. Those conditions are more easily changed then the deextinction of a species is.

someone has to be the voice of reason... even if I'm generally just shouting into the wind.

In that case, please impart onto me, O Holy Arbiter of All Knowledge, the key to reason and wisdom which apparently only you possess. 

I honestly feel we should end this derail here.

Nothing's more mature then a parting insult followed by calling for an end to the discussion.

[bloop_bleep]

someone has to be the voice of reason... even if I'm generally just shouting into the wind.

In that case, please impart onto me, O Holy Arbiter of All Knowledge, the key to reason and wisdom which apparently only you possess. 

I honestly feel we should end this derail here.

Nothing's more mature then a parting insult followed by calling for an end to the discussion.

For one thing, I do not think it's an insult. It was an (admittedly snarky) response to an actual direct insult.

Yoink explicitly stated that he was the only one capable of reason in this discussion, which is a direct attack on me. I simply made fun of that statement, and not him directly.

And yes, perhaps I shouldn't have ended it with that, but people acting superior to me is probably what peeves me off the most in any argument.

[Frumple]

Plus there would most likely always be decent populations of them in places that aren't farms - I'm pretty sure that's the case for most such species already.

Far as I can recall there are populations, but decent isn't how they're generally described... and it's only going to get worse going forward. Also could swear I remember them tending to be pretty fragile populations vis a vis disease or environmental disruption or whatev'. Farm animals generally aren't exactly the most competitive anymore, heh, barring the occasional one that's an invasive species (and introducing those en-masse makes you a colossal biosphere wrecking dickwad, by the by).

You could probably stop animal farming outright, conceptually, but you'd see the populations involved shrink drastically (with the varying consequences involved with probably scattershot introducing that many corpses to wherever they end up, 'coz gods know we don't have the patience to ramp things down over decades/centuries) if they managed to survive at all. If for whatever reason you give a shit about the critters' wellbeing, it's largely one of those damned either way situations.

[Castlecliff]

Eat all the meat you want.
It's bad for you, sure the body can take nutrients from it and all but it has compounds in it that when interacting with oxygen they damage your cells badly, carcinogens too. It makes you smell and express the smells of the animal you eat.
If that doesn't bother you then the lowering of your general frequency should.

The real shame is its not the cows, pigs, chickens etc that are being farmed.
Just like a cow you can't even see your own reflection either.