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[Flying Dice]

Haha, I ended up reading about the pro's and con's of the female space marines issue. Turns out GW later wrote in a thing where the emperor told people he had tried to make female space marines (to totally show he's not be a sexist douchebag) but coz of the genes and hormones etc it didn't work out.

Of course, the emperor isn't the one accused of sexism, and "in universe" justifications for what are clearly the author's biases don't actually make any sense to defuse the argument. How about my sci-fi setting in which humans have achieved godlike powers, but unfortunately only white people have the correct DNA structures to achieve it? It's not racist at all, because I explained it within the setting.

Seriously I have zero sympathy for the people who get angry about people questioning this type of "canon". If someone is really that enraged just because someone draws a girl space marine then they clearly haven't grown pubes yet and deserve to get spammed with even more of it.

The thing that really grinds my gears is when people draw female 40K anything and it's anime titties instead of 40K.

TBH the only real rage I ever see on the topic is people like you being outraged that there aren't female SM. S'like, okay? The sort of thing that is only emphasized so strongly by people who are way too obsessive. Like the Rust players who got pissed off when they ended up with a non-white or female Newmans as their character. Like we're only able to admire or project ourselves into characters who closely resemble us (or more likely an idealized self-image). I have literally never heard anyone complain about the SoB being a "girls-only club", as you put it. And shit, look at the attribution in-universe: SMs think of/describe themselves as sons of [Primarch] often as not, the SoB literally call themselves the Daughters of the Emperor and nobody says fuck-all to them about it.

And now to abruptly yank the gearshift over...

I'm told there's a significant uproar in the Warhammer 40k community about the concept of female space marines. There is a group that vocally does not want them. Only men can be space marines, because MACHISMO.

How is a woman wielding a heavy machine gun in one hand and a sword made of chainsaws in the other mowing down hordes of roaring orcs not flat-out awesome? In what way is this not literally the sexiest thing you can imagine as a hetero guy? Where did these men leave their penises? Do they remember how long ago it was that they lost them, and do they need help retracing their steps?

Now if you want to make an argument that GW has some misogynistic shitters in charge of important stuff like rules and lore, you definitely have a leg to stand on there, and I would not be entirely surprised if that wasn't part of the reason the lore is as it is.

Sauceplz. GW may be a bunch of horrible and nasty cunts, but that sounds a tad "HE ATE TEN PUPPIES AND KITTENS NO HONEST I SAW IT WITH MY OWN TWO EYES!"-like, with levels of bad stacked on top of that.

GW may be a bad company renowned for its likelihood to sue, threaten, and ^*'fine' while horribly shafting the consumers for an extra few dollars, but hating women is another league of terrible.

_{*local GW stores will extort players suspected of using unofficial models, and if they don't pay the fine they are banned.}

Matt Ward and what he did to the SoB codex. And then that whole wank-material section of fluff re: Grey Knights and SoB. I have no trouble at all suggesting that he legitimately either hates women or has a fetish for helpless/useless women (or potentially for hurting women if we want to go the really dark road). Among the many reasons to hate our Spiritual Liege, the bastard.

[Rolan7]

And, of course, the Sardaukar of Dune. This would eventually pass on to the more appropriate role of the deathworlder IG as 40k became something resembling serious, while the Astartes developed the whole more than human yet less than human theme.

As the Sororitas existed from the beginning (and are themselves derived from Dune), it is clear that they were developed as the female counterpart to Space Marines, as the idea of female Rambo wasn't particularly kosher by 80s standards. So, at worst, it is a legacy of conforming to past misogyny that was culturally mainstream.

Huh!  I only vaguely knew the Sardaukar from a GrimithR LP of that Dune RTS (not the one that started RTS, a quasi-3D one later).  But they do match the idea of a special Imperial contingent of elite warriors, on a level far above the typical levy, enforcing the Emperor's will.

And yeah, it's a product of the time.  It's not surprising that they'd drop that issue where it lay, given the outcry they'd probably receive if they admitted female SM (or reiterated them being impossible).

The thing that really grinds my gears is when people draw female 40K anything and it's anime titties instead of 40K.

Like... this?  https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6131/5922638060_1f6d7426dc_b.jpg
I'm actually fine with exaggerated armor (in this setting), but... yeah.

TBH the only real rage I ever see on the topic is people like you being outraged that there aren't female SM. S'like, okay? The sort of thing that is only emphasized so strongly by people who are way too obsessive.

...Who's being outraged here?  Reelya explained it as a product of the 80's.  Nobody's accusing current GW of misogyny.  I think the conversation was super chill, considering.

Like the Rust players who got pissed off when they ended up with a non-white or female Newmans as their character. Like we're only able to admire or project ourselves into characters who closely resemble us (or more likely an idealized self-image).

That's a bit weird, both to mention and for Rust to do.  A long-term survival game where you're forced to play whatever race and sex you roll?  I can totally understand people finding that uncomfortable, or at least arbitrary.

I have literally never heard anyone complain about the SoB being a "girls-only club", as you put it.

Um, it was SM being a no-girls-allowed club, but okay...
And yes, that matters.  SM are far more important than that weird pyromaniac branch of the Ecclesiarchy.  Sisters of Battle have a neat lore reason for being gender-locked, Space Marines have some contrived fake-science nonsense.  And Space Marines, despite their low numbers, are a lot more important.

And shit, look at the attribution in-universe: SMs think of/describe themselves as sons of [Primarch] often as not, the SoB literally call themselves the Daughters of the Emperor and nobody says fuck-all to them about it.

... I don't get the point.
They're not daughters of the Emperor at all.  Space Marines are more related to the Emperor, and also sons of their primarch.  And if the sisters were space marines, they'd be daughters of their primarch.  And much more daughters of the Emperor than they are now.

And now to abruptly yank the gearshift over...

Matt Ward and what he did to the SoB codex. And then that whole wank-material section of fluff re: Grey Knights and SoB. I have no trouble at all suggesting that he legitimately either hates women or has a fetish for helpless/useless women (or potentially for hurting women if we want to go the really dark road). Among the many reasons to hate our Spiritual Liege, the bastard.

Yeah, that incident was pretty WTF...  No argument here.

[Reelya]

Haha, I ended up reading about the pro's and con's of the female space marines issue. Turns out GW later wrote in a thing where the emperor told people he had tried to make female space marines (to totally show he's not be a sexist douchebag) but coz of the genes and hormones etc it didn't work out.

Of course, the emperor isn't the one accused of sexism, and "in universe" justifications for what are clearly the author's biases don't actually make any sense to defuse the argument. How about my sci-fi setting in which humans have achieved godlike powers, but unfortunately only white people have the correct DNA structures to achieve it? It's not racist at all, because I explained it within the setting.

Seriously I have zero sympathy for the people who get angry about people questioning this type of "canon". If someone is really that enraged just because someone draws a girl space marine then they clearly haven't grown pubes yet and deserve to get spammed with even more of it.

The thing that really grinds my gears is when people draw female 40K anything and it's anime titties instead of 40K.

TBH the only real rage I ever see on the topic is people like you being outraged that there aren't female SM. S'like, okay?

I'm not outraged about whether there are FSM or not. Couldn't care less. It's the fans that I find completely vile, as seen in the quotes above.

An analogy: say someone says there should be a black pope. Personally, about the skin color of the pope, i don't give a flying fuck either way. I don't give a shit about the pope. Have a blue pope, none of that makes any difference to me. But then some KKK people make a big deal "we don't want no nigga pope!" <= that's the shit that would piss me off. Oh right, so now the racists are jumping up and down about the black pope. That would encourage me to support the black pope just to fuck with those knobheads. It's the same with female space marines. I support that shit just to fuck with the dweebs who go on message boards to explain the "science" of how girls can't become space marines. if spreading the images more makes them blow a gasket, that's just good fun at a bigot's expense, the same as photoshopping a black pope just to fuck with some idiot racists.

[Kot]

Fucking FSM discussion, here, of all the places, and it seems to be three pages deep already, fuck. Ugh, why? The whole thing reeks of real life politics and the whole deal of "male CIS scum" and "tumblr feminazis" and I would love if it stayed outside of goddamn Warhammer.
1) Malcador The Sigilite actually joked to The Big E about making female Primarches, but he said it would be too much additional hassle for not enough gain. He also was worried about possibility of love-related problems. I mean, what if Horus Heresy was not over Chaos bullshit but rather over a woman? And while, yes, The Shamans making up Emperor were not enterietly male and he could supposedly pick a female form, it would be additional hassle. There is also this thing about Emprahs true form, which may or may not have been genderless.
Anyhow, this explains why Primarches were male, and if primarches were male, it explains why Space Marines must be male. The gene-seed is not Emperors man-sauce per se, its actually genetic trace of respective Chapters primarches with a bit of Emperor diluted through thousands of years of Marines (yes, Marines do grow two organs containing Gene-Seed, though skilled Apothecary can harvest enough genetic makeup for more than two Marines). Space Marines candidates are picked to resemble the Primarches the most genetically, so being a woman kind-of-disqualifies women. Also, the whole implanting proccess is geared towards males, so while it could proably be done if there were female Primarches (missing Legions, anyone?), without Big E coming back and deciding "lets have gurl mareens", it is fucking unlikely. As for the Marine sterility - no canon word of that, but supposedly yes. Wether their junk works or not is up to fanfiction youre reading, though.
2) There is a joke showing an image of Space Marine titled FSM. There is no way to really distinguish a FSM from regular MSM, especially in armour (although, during Rogue Trader there were models of "Female Adventurers in Space Marine armour", but we do not talk about those), which is actually why the only "canon FSM" was not discovered (well, she was, but due to differences in fighting style from the supposed owner of armour, not due to sudden apperance of boob plate or something). So, no Sexy Marines for you, just huge blobs of muscle in metal armour.
3) If someone is saying that FSM should be a thing because thats sexy and the only reason they arent is some sexuality problems among the fans or creators... fuck off. This isint your personal fapfiction.

[Reelya]

It's just amazing that people get so heated up about whether there are or aren't.

But I will say that appealing to in-game sources is not compelling evidence of why any game had to be designed a certain way. That's actually a really terrible type of reasoning, because they conflate the thought processes of characters in the fiction with designers in real life. In actuality, anything the designers want to do can be inserted into the backstory of any piece of fiction. The backstory is not a valid justification of why the game works that way. It works that way because the real people who designed it wanted it that way. There is no other reason.

Your second argument is that bio-engineered marines would look the same in power armor whether male or female. Therefore they have to be male. Well no sorry, that argument supports the "it doesn't matter whether you say any particular space marine model is male or female" argument. So they might as well be whatever the individual player who bought the figures says they are. How's that going to hurt you? You get to say your marine squad is all male, someone else gets to say there's is 50/50. Does this break the game for you somehow? And it's not like the backstory needs a lot of tweaking to fit that. "mumbo jumbo futuristic science fantasy dark magic hocus pocus" after all.

Also you do a strawman at the end that anyone who wishes there were more female warriors in this far-future game must only want fapfiction. That's clearly not the case.

[Jopax]

IIRC reading about the process of making an SM, one of the steps ends up chemically castrating them, not sure which tho. But even if it didn't you'd still have to bonk trough the black caparace and I don't think that's the most feasible of things to attempt.

[Reelya]

Saying a cyber warrior can't be a woman because she couldn't have sex then would seem to be really sexist, it's sort of a "not female if you can't bang 'em" argument.

Personally I don't really think someone just saying "some space marines could be women" is really invoking hardcore feminism. After all WH is a setting in which people make their own stories, like in a roleplaying game, so I don't see how it's become such a big deal at all. People are not bringing politics into the game by merely asking why they can't play female space marines, they just want the option of adapting the game to what they want.

[Kot]

Also you do a strawman at the end that anyone who wishes there were more female warriors in this far-future game must only want fapfiction. That's clearly not the case.

I'm told there's a significant uproar in the Warhammer 40k community about the concept of female space marines. There is a group that vocally does not want them. Only men can be space marines, because MACHISMO.

How is a woman wielding a heavy machine gun in one hand and a sword made of chainsaws in the other mowing down hordes of roaring orcs not flat-out awesome? In what way is this not literally the sexiest thing you can imagine as a hetero guy? Where did these men leave their penises? Do they remember how long ago it was that they lost them, and do they need help retracing their steps?

This is the post that sparked this discussion. Sorry that the strawman turned out to be answer to someones post.

But I will say that appealing to in-game sources is not compelling evidence of why any game had to be designed a certain way. That's actually a really terrible type of reasoning, because they conflate the thought processes of characters in the fiction with designers in real life. In actuality, anything the designers want to do can be inserted into the backstory of any piece of fiction. The backstory is not a valid justification of why the game works that way. It works that way because the real people who designed it wanted it that way. There is no other reason.

Mmm. True, but if you have a fiction that seems to follow at least some rules of common sense (...saying that about WH40k is pretty hilarious, though), there is some place to argue about in-lore issues of adding something in. I mean, why not add like, Hutt stormtroopers to Star Wars? Because they're fat immobile turds that can barely function on their own, that's why.

Your second argument is that bio-engineered marines would look the same in power armor whether male or female. Therefore they have to be male. Well NOPE. That argument works both ways. If it doesn't matter you shouldn't care one way or another if someone decided that half their figures represent women in power armor. After all, it's their game.

No. My argument is not that they "have to be male", my argument is that it's goddamn moot point because it doesn't make any real difference. Female Space Marine would be in every important way the same as Male Space Marine. My argument would be... why? Why the hell would you add in Female Space Marines? Give me one reason why adding them would be good. I'm waiting.

IIRC reading about the process of making an SM, one of the steps ends up chemically castrating them, not sure which tho. But even if it didn't you'd still have to bonk trough the black caparace and I don't think that's the most feasible of things to attempt.

It's not really chemical castration for the sake of it, it's just that the whole proccess is so straining on the body and there is so much genetical, chemical and physical (also psychological) manipulation involved that there must be some side-effects. And, as I said, while the whole process isin't geared towards women, it could be done if there was a gene-seed donor compatibile with females... ergo, female Primarch.

Saying a cyber warrior can't be a woman because she couldn't have sex then would seem to be really sexist, it's sort of a "not female if you can't bang 'em" argument.

Stop using strawmans yourself. He didin't say that.

[Jopax]

I wasn't saying anything about the females, I was trying to clarify a point Kot made about not being sure if the SM's are sterile or not :V

[Kot]

Oh, by bonking by you mean... heh.
Well, Black Carapace doesn't stretch over the 100% of body.

[Reelya]

Also you do a strawman at the end that anyone who wishes there were more female warriors in this far-future game must only want fapfiction. That's clearly not the case.

I'm told there's a significant uproar in the Warhammer 40k community about the concept of female space marines. There is a group that vocally does not want them. Only men can be space marines, because MACHISMO.

How is a woman wielding a heavy machine gun in one hand and a sword made of chainsaws in the other mowing down hordes of roaring orcs not flat-out awesome? In what way is this not literally the sexiest thing you can imagine as a hetero guy? Where did these men leave their penises? Do they remember how long ago it was that they lost them, and do they need help retracing their steps?

This is the post that sparked this discussion. Sorry that the strawman turned out to be answer to someones post.

Personally, I read the quote as supporting "Rule of Cool". The "where did they leave their penises" is actually mocking people who get upset about the concept of tough-as-nails women fighting alongside the men, by saying they basically are not functioning adult males. Many fans are acting a lot like 12 year old boys about this issue, with the "no girls germs allowed" signs on the clubhouse door. A typical adult man doesn't get uptight when female warriors are depicted. It looks childish.

[Kot]

>What are Adepta Sororitas
>What are Guardswomen
>What are Eldar women
>What are Callidus Assasins
And the list goes on, and on, and on...

The WH fanboys are putting up a "no girls allowed" sign on some places because trying to insert girls there is a sign of the same awful insecurity you accuse them of. I don't even like Space Marines, but fuck, if they are supposed to be last bastion of macho male misogyny, let them be. It doesn't hurt anyone, there are good (or even better) substitutes (SoBs are cooler, and Imperial Guard is the coolest of them all) and if you are so hard pressed you can imagine the Space Marines are all secrety women under the armour, but holy shit, stop trying to force the belief onto other people. Why? What's the point of proving that Space Marines should be women too? Gender equality? IN FUCKING FORTY-FIRST MILLENIUM, WHERE THERE IS ONLY WAR? WHERE PEOPLE HAVE DISCUSSIONS USING CHAINSAW SWORDS, BILLIONS DIE EACH HOUR? WHERE TECHNOLOGICAL PROGRESS IS A LONG FORGOTTEN JOKE? WHERE THERE IS NO PROGRESS OR UNDERSTANDING, AND EVERYTHING IS HELD WITH IRON GRIP BY CRAZED CHURCH FILLED WITH ZEALOTS THAT WORSHIP A ROTTING GUY WHO IS FORCEFULLY HELD ALIVE BY CONTINENT-SPANNING DEVICE? WHERE THERE IS ONLY CARNAGE AND SHIPS BASED AFTER GOTHIC CATHEDRALS CRUISE THE STARS TO COMMIT GENOCIDE ON ALIENS? WHERE POWER MAD INQUISITORS JUST GO AROUND AND CASUALLY EXPLODE PLANETS WHEN SOMEONE SAYS A WRONG WORD? WHERE THERE IS LITERAL GOD OF SEX AND DRUGS?
WHAT?!?

[George_Chickens]

The Imperial Guard are the coolest things in the world, and I want more.

[Comrade P.]

The Imperial Guard are the coolest things in the world, and I want more.

Said each post-Heresy World Eater ever.

[CABL]

Excuse me, but why Matt Ward is so hated amongst Warhammer 40K players? I'm not into Tabletop Games myself (I have no RL friends), but it's possible that I'll try out DnD or something like that...