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[Flying Dice]

You blow them up of course. That is the logical outcome of the Prisoner's dilemma.

Which is kinda the odd thing about the Prisoner's dilemma. It just feels like a "Everyone loses" scenario.

No. Not at all. The conclusion to be reached, both logically and morally, is to not be a selfish dick.

One of the additional aspects of it is that if you screw someone over once, neither they nor anyone else will trust you to cooperate ever again. If you cooperate, you may lose out once or twice, but in the long run you will build successful relationships with others who cooperate, generating far more "good" for you than a single betrayal could ever provide. This is the basis for all of human society: it is more beneficial for everyone involved to work together, obey laws, etc. because living in a successful community is far more beneficial over the long term.

Take, for example, a pair of stone-age hunters. If they work together to bring down an animal larger than either could alone, they've each got two options: Trust the other to stay cooperative and only take their share; or take as much as they can. If they both betray the other, they leave with mutual distrust and only whatever they could grab. If one betrays the other, the betrayer gets more from that kill, but loses out on the possibility of future cooperation. If they share equally, they each get not only a greater share than they would through mutual betrayal, but also reap the increased benefits from further cooperative efforts in the future, making each of their lives easier and more rewarding.

Choosing to betray in the Prisoner's Dilemma is incredibly shortsighted. Cooperation spawns further cooperation and the benefits thereof, for however long such interactions continue. Betrayal at best provides a single short-term increase in benefit but destroys all chance of future cooperation.

Entirely different Dillema there Dice. The Hare theorom. Do you abandon and chase the rabbitt, or do you help them out and get a deer? The problem being, if enough chicken out, it fails, and they chiken outers prove theselves right. It's how markets collapse.

If you hadd read my post, you would have noticed that it wasn't. The focus wasn't on the increased gains from the cooperation prior to the scenario (except in terms of the long-term benefits of cooperation), but on the choices made by the two parties over their bounty.

You could substitute, say, highway robbery. If two people work together to rob a stagecoach, they have the same choice: share the loot or grab as much as they can and bail. If they cooperate (share), they not only maximize their gains, but have all the gains from future cooperation as well. If one takes more than their share and splits while the other doesn't, the greedy one gets a single short-term payoff but loses the chance at cooperation of future robberies. If both decide to cheat the other, neither will get away with as much as if they had done a fair split.

[Nadaka]

Anyway,onto a more entertaining Game teory, the DOLLAR AUCTION! Hello folks, Top of the morning to you top of the day, it's time, to play. For bid we have ONE, Dollar. This seems stupid you say. "What's to keep me from betting 1 penny and convincing eveyone else to split it?" Nothing, except that guy other there, who looks like he'd want it all to himself for 2 pennies. And so on. "But wait, it will eventually be .99, and then you just owe a penny" It would be if you listened to thre rules dear boy. Because, while the top bidder gives me his bid in exchange for a dollar, the second-highest bidder gives it to me and gets NOTHING. That's right folks. So mister .98 over there might want to not pay that, and go to a dollar. And what about you? It's a choice between paying 1 cent and payign 99. easy right?
 
*five minutes later*
 
Thanks for your money folks. All $10 of it.

The best bit is that when it gets to .99 cents, and somebody doesn't want to pay their 90 cents bid, so they bid a dollar. The other guy then thinks that the 2 cents loss from bidding $1.01 is better than the 99 cent loss, thus this continues and people bid higher and higher just to try and minimize their loss.

Embarrassingly, this was how I thought auctions actually worked until I was about 16. 

The terrible thing is, someone got the brilliant idea that they can make bank by doing something similar... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidding_fee_auction

That shit is real.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The point of the Prisoner's Dillema is that it is clearly logically better for everyone to cooperate, even if that means limiting your ambition, but people are hesitant to do that.

I'm particularly shocked though, as in the experiment I participated in the difference between cooperation and competition was three dollars out of forty-five. Their potential gain was so very little, but they did it anyway.

As for me, I always find my position in the Prisoner's Dilemma to be trying to cooperate because I recognize it and then getting vengeful and trying to fuck everyone else over once they won't cooperate, even if that doesn't benefit me or hurts me.

[kaijyuu]

As for me, I always find my position in the Prisoner's Dilemma to be trying to cooperate because I recognize it and then getting vengeful and trying to fuck everyone else over once they won't cooperate, even if that doesn't benefit me or hurts me.

And thus we learn vengeance is bad

[MetalSlimeHunt]

As for me, I always find my position in the Prisoner's Dilemma to be trying to cooperate because I recognize it and then getting vengeful and trying to fuck everyone else over once they won't cooperate, even if that doesn't benefit me or hurts me.

And thus we learn vengeance is bad

In this situation I find vengeance to be very good. It discourages losing the Prisoner's Dilemma because it keeps the betrayers from ever winning. Sure, I lost too, but I'm happy with keeping them from winning if they won't cooperate.

[kaijyuu]

The fiance was just explaining to me that that is still a win for you, since you value the opponent losing, therefore you "win" something. What she said makes sense, but makes me boggle a bit still, so excuse me for a moment while I think over live the universe and everything once more.

[Descan]

Another way to "win" the prisoners dilemma is to have a punishment for traitors. See: The Law in regards to thievery and murder, it'd make life easier to murder and steal, but the law keeps everyone (or nearly everyone) that WOULD murder or steal if there was no consequence from doing so.

Or to care about the other person. To keep with the prisoners part, if you were Thelma and Louise and you got caught.

There are a lot of practical answers to the quandary, depending on the situation. You're very rarely going to get a Pure Prisoners Dilemma, where you only want to maximize your own profit and to hell with the future or the other person.

[Lightningfalcon]

Well then there's the way you win.  You hate the other person so much that those years you will have in prison will be worth it. 

[Max White]

Or have sociopaths tendencies so that the other person liked you enough to not break, but you sell them out in a second.

On a related note, many very successful businessmen have these tendencies.

[Hanslanda]

Well then there's the way you win.  You hate the other person so much that those years you will have in prison will be worth it.

"But you'll lose if we both sell each other out!"
"No, because then we'll get out at the same time, and I. Will. Find. You."

[Lightningfalcon]

Well then there's the way you win.  You hate the other person so much that those years you will have in prison will be worth it.

"But you'll lose if we both sell each other out!"
"No, because then we'll get out at the same time, and I. Will. Find. You."

And then, in order to avoid that situation, they won't rat you out, in order to get out at a different time. 

[SalmonGod]

My interpretation of the Prisoner's Dilemma:  it's a cultural problem.  The only reason it's a dilemma is because we're accustomed to a competitive society, where people regularly screw each other over.  In fact, it's expected most of the time.  There is almost zero cultural expectation for people to be naturally kind or trusting towards anyone that isn't pre-established friend/family.  Selfishness is even glorified.  Our cultural focus is deliberately skewed towards the magnificent bastard.  If our cultural priorities were reversed, and there's absolutely no reason they can't be, the Prisoner's Dilemma wouldn't even be a thing.  If there were stronger cultural expectations regarding cooperation, then there would be less risk associated with assuming cooperation in a Prisoner's Dilemma-type situation.

[Neonivek]

Ok given this discussion and how everyone brought something different, and often contradictory, to the table.

I can now see why they written a book on it.

WTF retracted.

[misko27]

NONONONO.
 
The point isn't that there is some money or points or "winning", the point those numbers, they don't have to mean anything! They just use the prison example because most people dislike prison more then their other emotions. Same thign with the money, most peopel like money. The problem is that peopel think that it is limited to it. Hate, envy, Sex, Love ,Power, Any and all of these could be part of it. The point is the order of what is valuable to what is least valuable. If fucking your opponent over is your main goal, your reward or "points" should reflect the degree to which you can do that.
 
It needn't even be a moral descision. If you are dealing with unsavory things, you could end up violating your morality to cooperate, and being a good person by defecting! It isn't inherently bad that you defect, it should be noted. If Following your conscious is part of your considerations, you have to realize, the numbers and scores represent EVERYTHING you stand to gain from a situation, moral, ethical, physical, mental, etc.

[Hanslanda]

Well then there's the way you win.  You hate the other person so much that those years you will have in prison will be worth it.

"But you'll lose if we both sell each other out!"
"No, because then we'll get out at the same time, and I. Will. Find. You."

And then, in order to avoid that situation, they won't rat you out, in order to get out at a different time.

In which case, I win, because then I get out immediately and they stay in 10 years or whatever, however that works. It's win-win for me.