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[ductape]

B12 makes fairly mainstream games and Spiderweb Software makes fairly niche games. DF is sort of like GTA with dwarves and construction - an open, procedurally generated world where you can do all sorts of things. Avernum is a generic dungeon crawler. One is far more polished and attractive looking than the other.

wow, i dont want to flame or start any flaming but you must be insane. DF is a fairly mainstream game? DF is like GTA? GTA is procedurally generated? uhhhh....well, no.

And, Avernum is not a generic dungeon crawler.

BTW, i doubt Arcen games is having trouble because of anything to do with sales of AI War. Likely they overextended themselves with Tidalis and the money is not rolling in. BTW, Tidalis is fun and AI War had good sales, many people on this forum bought it I bet.

Besides, maybe the guys at Arcen like to go to titty bars and party it up. You can't know why a company is sturggling based solely on an outsider (us) opinion.

[Keiseth]

Okay, several of the posts in this topic have irritated me for various reasons. I'm going to pretend they don't exist now.

I'm pretty sad to hear this-- AI War was a pretty revolutionary game, at a very affordable price, with constant content updates. It seems like the developer is trudging right through financial worry and working on 4.0, which is a commendable devotion to the art of making a game.

I thought AI War was a rather pretty game already. I mean it's not a graphical power house but it has a nice, crisp UI, everything is very visible and blends together well. It's remarkably easy to pick up, too. So the upgrade is interesting to me.

[Cheese]

Okay, several of the posts in this topic have irritated me for various reasons. I'm going to pretend they don't exist now.

I'm pretty sad to hear this-- AI War was a pretty revolutionary game, at a very affordable price, with constant content updates. It seems like the developer is trudging right through financial worry and working on 4.0, which is a commendable devotion to the art of making a game.

I thought AI War was a rather pretty game already. I mean it's not a graphical power house but it has a nice, crisp UI, everything is very visible and blends together well. It's remarkably easy to pick up, too. So the upgrade is interesting to me.

Agree, some people haven't even tried the damn game. I don't see how it doesn't look impressive, did you watch the trailer? And yea, it's not AI war that's the problem anyway.
Also, what's wrong with the interface?

[KaelGotDwarves]

Okay, the lurking monk who is supposedly just checking his email logged in just to point this out:

Not mentioning names, but you guys with DF and Aurora signatures are complaining about AI Wars: Fleet Command supposedly having a bad interface?

Did my irony meter just explode?

Don't knock the game if you haven't played the whole thing, or even attempted it extensively (besides the short demo).

There's many reasons that compared to other companies Arcen Games may be having trouble. There's quite a few posts all over the web now documenting Minecraft's ridiculous success and in comparing the two, here are a few things I can gleam from comparisons:

1. AI Wars and Minecraft may be indie games, but AI Wars (Arcen's more well known game) is much more of a niche game than INTERNET LEGO EXPLORER Minecraft, which brings out the child in almost everyone. My girlfriend loves Minecraft. She would shake her head if I showed her AI Wars. Likewise, I know much more of my friends play Minecraft on and off than know what AI Wars is. I had facebook friends from highschool I haven't talked to in years proclaiming that Minecraft is "addicting like crack".

2. Arcen didn't really advertise Tidalis, it's new game, and while it got some exposure and great reviews, it did not use the company's established fanbase of consumers (hardcore strategy/space fans). What would happen if Toady slowed down development of DF to work on a puzzle game?

3. The company Arcen games was created and the programmer quit his job early on to start and finance his new venture. There were many startup costs for engines, artistic design, licenses, and hardware/software. Notch and Toady continued their old jobs until they were relatively sure (in Notch's case rolling in money) that they could self-sustain.

And on and on.

AI Wars is a great game with a few quirks - but there's only few good games that I've seen the developer support as much after releasing for free. Considering that they are in relative financial trouble, it's good to read that they're still going through with the charity expansion that they planned months ago. I know I'll buy it when I get out of the monasteries.

[Cheese]

Apparently there will also be another full expansion at some point next year 
But Arcen is also still making Alden ridge, or rather, Alden ridge arcade, a shortened down version that they're going to try to make some money with, then make the full version. I think they're going too deep into puzzle and point and click adventures by the looks of it.

[Fikes]

I will admittedly say I did not play the demo for AI very long and I could be way off base on my assessment, but just a look at their website shows they are targeting a niche. Look at the features:

- Space-based RTS, single player or up to 8 player co-op.
- Powerful emergent AI that retreats, probes defenses, and surprises even veterans with intelligent tactics.
- 30,000+ ships at a time on 10-120 simultaneous planetary battlefields.

Explain to me how that means anything more than "Shit is happening all over the place, don't expect to really understand what is happening". You could maybe, MAYBE do it with a really good UI, but look at the trailer, it is just a mess of blue lines and green bars.

The thing that frustrates me is that some Indie game studios pick a feature and just run with it to absurdity.  It is as if they decide to succeed they have to be different and over the top.

Now, again, I will say that I didn’t give AI Wars more than a few seconds of my time, and I could be way off base, but nothing about the game even began to appeal to me. Sowelu said it best. Creative, high-quality, and epic, choose any two. This is more true for small studios than anywhere else. You can pick all three, but then you have a game in development for seven years…

[Cheese]

Dude, those features aren't what it's all about.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

Um... Indie studios kinda do have to be different to succeed.  Mainstream developers spend millions of dollars on being the same as everything else, so in that field indies really have no chance.

[Virex]

Okay, the lurking monk who is supposedly just checking his email logged in just to point this out:

Not mentioning names, but you guys with DF and Aurora signatures are complaining about AI Wars: Fleet Command supposedly having a bad interface?

Did my irony meter just explode?

Erm, Aurora has one of the best interfaces I've seen in a game and DF comes close.

[Sowelu]

Um... Indie studios kinda do have to be different to succeed.  Mainstream developers spend millions of dollars on being the same as everything else, so in that field indies really have no chance.

That doesn't make any sense.  It's not like gamers only buy one game a year.  Buying a big budget game doesn't prevent you from buying little games.  If a little indie studio can get enough market penetration and lower their production costs, they can still make quite a friendly profit, even while charging lower prices.  Someone who likes...hell, whatever Black Isle is these days, I never keep track...isn't going to shun Spiderweb Studios just because their games are cheaper while having a lower production value.

Cave Story was the definition of an indie dev house (one guy...) but it was NOT a niche title, it was a pretty darn mainstream title in its genre--even if it was very short by comparison to larger games.  Didn't some console company get the rights to it and start selling it?  I know that if it came out on Steam for $10-$15, it would have sold like freakin' hotcakes.

Erm, Aurora has one of the best interfaces I've seen in a game and DF comes close.

lolwut?  The guy can't even get tab order right.  It's ridiculous.  He's not even trying.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Okay, the lurking monk who is supposedly just checking his email logged in just to point this out:

Not mentioning names, but you guys with DF and Aurora signatures are complaining about AI Wars: Fleet Command supposedly having a bad interface?

Did my irony meter just explode?

Erm, Aurora has one of the best interfaces I've seen in a game and DF comes close.

I love Aurora and DF more than most people, but you can't really argue that Aurora isn't Spreadsheets: the game - programmed in VISUAL BASIC with buttons all over the place and an UI screen that can't be resized but instead must be worked around to work on laptops or small resolution screens, and DF's interface - while powerful - requires a wiki for most people and Toady has admitted at various times that he will clean it up.

If that was sarcasm or you were being deadly serious, well, then I'm so sorry.

[Sowelu]

Spreadsheets: the game

That was MOO3.

[Fikes]

Again, I agree with Sowelu 100%. Splunkey is nothing new, yet is super popular and coming to X-Box. Plants vs. Zombies brings nothing special to the table, same with almost every pop-cap game. Castle Crushers is the same way. None of these games "Break the mold", but they are presented in a pleasant way and are simply fun. None of these games are OMFG epic either.

And to say AI isn't about "OMFG SO MENY UNETS!" flys in the face of every ounce of marketing the game has to offer. The trailer on their site lists it first, the features section of their site lists it first, and everywhere you look it is the feature they bill.

Regardless of the merits of AI my message to any indy studio is to limit your scope and focus on making something fun.

Also “lol” at people who think Auroa and DF have good interfaces. Why the fuck can’t I build a smelter? Oh, apparently it isn’t a work shop. Which stockpile do barrels end up in again? Why do I have to click 6 times PER Z-LEVEL to designate a 3x3 shaft? Even if you love the game, you cannot make an argument that the interface is “good”.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Spreadsheets: the game

That was MOO3.

Hey man, MoO3 had scroll bars... scroll bars! That's high tech stuff.

On the Aurora forums someone asked Steve if he could implement scrollbars in Aurora to clean up the UI and make it possible to play on low resolutions, and the answer was "Steve programs this game for himself to help facilitate his story writing and we're all lucky to even be able to play it as it is", which is fine, but Steve's main job and livelihood isn't Aurora, which is too bad, because I think it could help support him with some work on the interface.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

Um... Indie studios kinda do have to be different to succeed.  Mainstream developers spend millions of dollars on being the same as everything else, so in that field indies really have no chance.

That doesn't make any sense.  It's not like gamers only buy one game a year.  Buying a big budget game doesn't prevent you from buying little games.  If a little indie studio can get enough market penetration and lower their production costs, they can still make quite a friendly profit, even while charging lower prices.  Someone who likes...hell, whatever Black Isle is these days, I never keep track...isn't going to shun Spiderweb Studios just because their games are cheaper while having a lower production value.

Cave Story was the definition of an indie dev house (one guy...) but it was NOT a niche title, it was a pretty darn mainstream title in its genre--even if it was very short by comparison to larger games.  Didn't some console company get the rights to it and start selling it?  I know that if it came out on Steam for $10-$15, it would have sold like freakin' hotcakes.

Erm, Aurora has one of the best interfaces I've seen in a game and DF comes close.

lolwut?  The guy can't even get tab order right.  It's ridiculous.  He's not even trying.

Black Isle isn't anything anymore.  Interplay shut it down years ago.

And as far as I can tell your post isn't even a response to mine.  Let me repeat.  Indies have to be different to make a mark because they can't just throw money at something to become the best at the same exact thing people with more money are doing.  That's the whole basis of the indie/mainstream divide.  Mainstream games do things that are shown to be successful as over and over with tons of money and high production values.  Indie games do things that mainstream companies are afraid to do because they might not make billions of dollars in profits.