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Author Topic: Megabeast Populating: More Tactical.  (Read 2096 times)

SirHoneyBadger

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Megabeast Populating: More Tactical.
« on: September 29, 2010, 05:52:41 am »

This is a suggestion inspired by this question/answer session between ToadyOne and Neonivek:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Warning: Wall of Text.

In reply to this: In Worldgen, each Megabeast should be assigned a "lair", located in an environment/biome that suited it.

This Lair would be a very simple, 3x3x3 cavern area, programmed to form entirely inside of stone, atleast 3 Z levels below the surface in all places, and also programmed to have a single, accessible "cave" entrance, leading either to the surface, or to the nearest cavern, body of water, or other such open space.

A very small, very simple, but unclosed cave, in other words. 

This would be placed outside of normal worldbuilding, once the World had taken it's shape, but before Events occurred.

This would keep Megabeasts from listlessly wandering the countryside, without requiring heavy AI programming, and eliminate an immediate vulnerability to being "rushed". 

Megabeasts would exist in a hybernating state, until contacted (by physically coming within 1 Z level of their Lair, in any direction) by a being with the ability to learn skills (anything smarter than an animal).

This could happen in WorldGen (as simple as random number generation), in which case, that megabeast would have an impact on history, as normal.

Otherwise, the Megabeast would remain "hybernating" until the time of the game.

If any part of this cave "home" touched a pre-existing cavern, the Megabeast would instead be located, awake, on the nearest immediate floor of that cavern system. Being awake in the closed environment of a cavern should reduce or eliminate the same dangers that being awake on the surface might otherwise cause.

To ensure their survival, Megabeasts would not ever be required to eat or drink or breathe fresh air. All Megabeasts would be given the ability to swim, and all could survive indefinitely underwater, even if that wasn't their "natural environment".

Megabeasts who's homes happened to touch magma at any point, would instead appear awake, on the surface immediately above, at the closest magma free area available. This would allow a few Megabeasts to occasionally awaken during Worldgen, without sentient contact ("a volcano woke them up").

Hybernating megabeasts who's homes were flooded by magma during actual gameplay, would also reappear, unharmed and awake, at a nearby but random magma-free surface area. This would keep them from being exterminated by "flooding the world" with magma, or chance volcanoes, or other events, before giving them a chance to wreak havok.

Dragons, bronze colossi, and other Megabeasts with special relationships with fire, may very well be immune to magma, anyway, but could still be awoken in this manner.

Any damage done to a hybernating Megabeast would cause exactly the same thing to occur--It would reappear, awake and angry, but completely unharmed, on a random nearby surface area.

It would be therefore impossible, as a game mechanic, to kill a hybernating Megabeast, without first waking it up.

Contacting it, without causing it any damage, would cause the Megabeast to wake up, but not to randomly shift location. Sentient creatures brave enough to approach, would still be inclined to attack it, however, even if you really didn't want them to.

These means would help to eliminate the more obvious means of safely getting rid of sleeping megabeasts the player had managed to locate. 

Once two or more of the same Megabeast (regardless of sex) were "awake", at any point in the game, the awake ones could then breed as a normal breeding population, provided that active population included both males and females.

Hybernating Megabeasts would not count towards the breeding population.

The requirement of only active Megabeasts of that type in the world breeding, would go a long way towards keeping numbers down, while allowing a more natural life cycle to occur, and help to keep Megabeasts from all going extinct.

In addition, for every Megabeast killed during Worldgen, there would be a 5% chance that a hybernating Megabeast, of that type (if any still exist), would become a hybernating "Breeding Mother".

That megabeast would become a female, regardless of original sex, and immedately begin laying eggs/having hatchlings, etc., while still hybernating.

These eggs, or maybe hatchlings (depending on the species of Megabeast?), would also be "hybernating". The eggs/hatchlings would not begin aging, until/unless woken up by the same means as the Mother.

Breeding Mothers would awaken by exactly the same means as other hybernating Megabeasts. Hatchlings would only awaken if physically damaged, or by contact by a sentient being, or by magma.

Unlike all other Megabeasts, Breeding Mother Hatchlings (only) could be damaged/killed, or even possibly stolen (eggs), without waking the Mother, but this should carry with it an extreme risk of waking the whole "nursery", including the Mother, at the same time.

The appearance of Megabeast "Mothers" would be a special event that would have to occur during Worldgen, and would only be caused (and rarely so) by the death of another Megabeast. No new sleeping "Mothers" would be created after Worldgen was over.

That would give the rare possibility of stumbling upon a much larger problem than even the single Megabeast you were prepairing for, while allowing some Megabeast "eggs" to exist in the world.

Birthrate would remain low.

If a Bronze Colossus ever became a "Mother", it would instead cause additional hybernating Bronze Colossi to appear in the same Lair.

This would normally be 1 additional Colossus, but it could maybe become a mod tag for "Megabeast--does not breed", that allowed you to set random number parameters, allowing players to instead stumble upon a collection of several unliving Megabeasts, rather than a nest of living, breeding ones

In that way, there would always be the possibility of running across more Bronze Colossi, and similar Megabeasts, than the player could count on appearing in the game.

Megabeasts--any of the types we have now--would never appear in the Ocean (within any Ocean or similar biome), but may appear in small bodies of water/murky pools.

If ToadyOne wants to add ocean biome Megabeasts, these may have/requre different features. This Thread isn't about them, and doesn't deal with them, or attempt to figure out how they might work.

Megabeasts who appear in bodies of water, and who's Lairs would be completely submerged in water in all directions, would instead appear awake, on the floor of that body of water, at the time of gameplay. That would give you occasional "lake monsters", emerging to interact with the world, in a similar manner to those "awoken by volcanoes".

The ones appearing in lakes would only awaken/become active, at the time of the game, itself, unlike the ones who's lairs happened to touch magma.

They would hybernate throughout Worldgen/Events, as normal, unless awoken--which should be a fairly rare event, since they'd be hybernating on the bottom of a lake or murky pool.

That would help to increase the chances of having a handful of active Megabeasts, somewhere in the world, at the time of the start of the game.

Hybernating Megabeasts could still be worshipped, as normal, and this worship might give a clever player some clues to the Megabeast's whereabouts.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 06:02:15 am by SirHoneyBadger »
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Funk

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Re: Megabeast Populating: More Tactical.
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2010, 10:44:58 am »

i can only that i like it.
just my suggestions
* Megabeasts should return to there lair to heal wounds over time.
this can act as a way of keeping active Megabeast numbers down and store them.

*some Megabeasts should trying get civ to build forts or temples near there lair.

*other ways to awaken them(linked to spheres)i.e. as bronze colossus have [SPHERE:WAR] then a war near by has better odds of awakening one than a cyclops([SPHERE:LIGHTNING],[SPHERE:THUNDER]),but a cyclops has better odds with a storm.


« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 11:27:41 am by Funk »
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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doomdome

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Re: Megabeast Populating: More Tactical.
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2010, 05:32:56 pm »

What if, instead of just having other nearby colossi, the Bronze Colossus "breeding mother" would be a statue maker of sorts, creating new colossi from nearby metals/rocks? So maybe you'd get a Marble colossus with it, or even Adamantine if you're really unlucky... (that would basically kill EVERYTHING)
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Knigel

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Re: Megabeast Populating: More Tactical.
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2010, 06:00:47 pm »

What if, instead of just having other nearby colossi, the Bronze Colossus "breeding mother" would be a statue maker of sorts, creating new colossi from nearby metals/rocks? So maybe you'd get a Marble colossus with it, or even Adamantine if you're really unlucky... (that would basically kill EVERYTHING)

When theorizing about colossi made of different materials in another thread, most of us came to the conclusion that unless it had bladed limbs an adamantine colossus would be nigh-indestructible but have the killing power of a giant marshmallow.
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Knigel

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Re: Megabeast Populating: More Tactical.
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2010, 06:46:19 pm »

^Did you ever see it actually kill anyone?
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Farthing

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Re: Megabeast Populating: More Tactical.
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2010, 09:48:06 pm »

The problem I have with the idea is that the lair doesn't seem to have any effect other than spawn location. In theory, a megabeast could spawn anywhere sleeping, and have the same effect as if it had spawned there normally.

What I do like is that it makes megabeasts more resilient during worldgen. Also breeding megabeasts = win.

Neonivek

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Re: Megabeast Populating: More Tactical.
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2010, 11:07:00 pm »

^Did you ever see it actually kill anyone?

The Ghost busters in some of the videogames.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Megabeast Populating: More Tactical.
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2010, 02:00:32 am »

The problem I have with the idea is that the lair doesn't seem to have any effect other than spawn location.

That's actually the point.

There's a lot of really fun ideas posted in this Thread, as far as additional things that could be done with the "Lair" concept, but please note:

I'm intentionally making this simple. Simple to understand, simple (hopefully) to code, and simple to elaborate on.

The elaboration of the central concept isn't the intention of the OP/suggestion, however. This is only meant to solve some basic Megabeast problems that currently exist in the game. Anything beyond that, is a little bit beyond the intended scope of this thread.

I don't mind further suggestions, as long as it's understood that the basic idea is to solve basic problems, in a way that I'm speculating wouldn't be as hard on ToadyOne as it might otherwise be. 
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Farthing

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Re: Megabeast Populating: More Tactical.
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2010, 12:46:39 pm »

Ah, my apologies. In that case it makes a good deal more sense. Do a large number of Megabeasts die due to poor spawn location in world-gen?

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Megabeast Populating: More Tactical.
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2010, 09:04:27 am »

Ah, my apologies. In that case it makes a good deal more sense. Do a large number of Megabeasts die due to poor spawn location in world-gen?

That exact question is pretty hard for me to answer. It makes sense that some must.

Considering how limited in number they are, and that they don't currently breed, every one that spawns in a poor spot, reduces the total number of megabeasts ever, by a significant percentage.

Add in things like rush tactics, masterwork crossbows, traps, seige weapons, bridge atomizers, wall-to-wall-lava carpeting, booseplosions, and all the dirty, underhanded tactics that human players are able to come up with, and it's fresh dragonmeat on the menu, every night. 

This thread attempts to fulfill the desires for:

1 Relatively few Megabeasts,
2 Existing throughout a large portion of history,
3 And into the timeframe of a typical game,
4 In which they retain their awesome status as uberpowerful,
5 But not invulnerable,
6 Predators, 
7 Even in the face of clever human players,
8 While having some capacity to breed,
9 But without breeding the world to death.
10 In a rational, easy to swallow, if not scientific or realistic, manner.
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doomdome

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Re: Megabeast Populating: More Tactical.
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2010, 03:01:15 pm »

Quote
Considering how limited in number they are, and that they don't currently breed, every one that spawns in a poor spot, reduces the total number of megabeasts ever, by a significant percentage.
I dunno, looking at my legends page, I have a ~75 dragons, colossi and hydras in a 1050 year worldgen, and only 2 of them are dead (both colossi, killed by a lizard brute and an elephant brute...). Ettins, titans, giants, forgotten beasts, and all that other stuff are mostly alive too. My demons and [species] brutes are all dead though.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Megabeast Populating: More Tactical.
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2010, 05:08:05 am »

Megabeasts were toughened up in a recent update, and the game no longer starts whenever a certain percentage of megabeasts are dead.

They were also made invincible to anything other than another Megabeast, in World-gen. So you can never have a legendary hero slay a dragon, in Events, because the game says no.

None of those things adds a whole lot to the premise of what a "megabeast" should be, or makes the game more interesting, due to their presence in it.

This is partly an effort to add some of that interest, and stretching that interest out, by twisting the circumstances of their appearance around a bit, by putting them inside the equivalent of a sortof "time release pill".

Also, although I'm downplaying additional suggestions/speculation somewhat, in this thread, I think there's a lot that could be done with the idea of Megabeasts appearing in Lairs.

For example: In a way, hybernating Megabeasts could function pretty much like mini-versions of HFS, that you could encounter even on the surface.

Their lairs might similarly contain valuables (dragons guarding their golden horde), and/or be otherwise "special" in various ways, maybe giving you access to things that would be better if found only by random chance, and then accessed by overcoming a large and dangerous (literally!) challenge.

Maybe they could be guardians to the entrances to other dimensions that have been suggested in the Future of the Fortress?
Those entrances could be located inside the Lairs (which could possibly become more elaborate than 3x3, but still be "stock" architecture, like HFS has)
That would help "explain" Megabeasts, as powerful creatures created to guard portals.


73 Megabeasts running around, all at the same time, to me, isn't as appealing as occasionally happening upon one, or having one appear, or even having just a few well-known ones surviving through the centuries.

Putting them all on the map, all at once, all at the same time, also does something to reduce the singular impact of each of them.

It takes a lot of the mystery and terror out of them, making them into just especially nasty "boatmurdered elephants" that don't even breed.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 06:16:47 am by SirHoneyBadger »
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