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[MaDeR Levap]

And I realize it's not just this, and it probably isn't a recent phenomenon, it just gets under my skin a little.

This is just "new media are evil" syndrome. And yes, it is not new. Writing and books was long, looong ago also evil. FUD about any newfangled contraption is just BS.

Maybe some right wing republican is sponsoring Toady to make elf-environmentalists seem hateworthy? Lots of US military propaganda in entertainment, especially games. Wouldn't be surprising if someone threw money at Toady to make some for DF too.

Don't worry, paranoia is treatable. Maybe. Sometimes. Anyway, you will fit here in DF just fine.

[Wardo]

Have you ever tried playing nice?

My current fortress is actually a hospital, dedicated to healing and helping all who needs. Sadly, there are no travellers or random groups of injuried people arriving for help in Dwarf Fortress (yet?), so I must use my IMAGINATION, and a hidden torture chamber, to make my own patients. And then there's the magma pit for when they are supposedly discharged and supposed to leave the map. I also have to rob caravans to pay for all of this, since not a single patient ever pays anything...

Yeah, your're right. Even when you want to be nice in DF you have to be bad.

[chewie]

Have you ever tried playing nice?

My current fortress is actually a hospital, dedicated to healing and helping all who needs.

The fact, that I read something like that the first time here, tells me very much about DF and its community

[MaDeR Levap]

Have you ever tried playing nice?

The fact, that I read something like that the first time here, tells me very much about DF and its community

...and he still have hidden torture chamber. This game is just evil.

[Shade-o]

Elves aren't that bad. They come and trade with you, giving you food, drink, cloth, lumber and rare animals. If they were really as bad as people claim, they would just race the goblins for the opportunity to burn your fort to the ground, not engage in trade and diplomacy.

[BaronBalloon]

dwarf fortress is a sandbox game, but that doesnt mean it doesnt have philosophy to it. the moment you start playing dwarf fortress, just looking at the controls, you know that industry is expected of you. there is no option to have your dwarves fly kites or practice yoga. a very definite sense of materialism can be felt simply through the happiness of dwarves with golden furniture. in dwarf fortress, a specific government model is offered, unfortunate accidents aside. our control of dwarves but of no other creatures can create in us the feeling of dwarven superiority. dwarf fortress abounds with philosophical implications. when you play dwarf fortress, you are creating thought processes based on the manifestation of toady's thought processes. and that is the basics of art, culture, and the assimilation of philosophy.

[BaronBalloon]

what i would really like to see take place would be a discussion of dwarven philosophy as opposed to dwarf fortress philosophy. what do our dwarves believe?

[Errol]

I do believe it's something like "I'm drunk, therefore I am".

[monk12]

I do believe it's something like "I'm drunk, therefore I am".

"I drink, therefore I am", to be exact. "Bibo Ergo Sum"

I was hoping for a discussion of Dwarven Philosophy as opposed to Dwarf Fortress Philosophy, as the Baron suggests and the thread title says. So, I'll ditch the "New Media Are Evil" dead horse debate where everybody already agrees and try to kick of something else.

I personally would like to see dwarves have ethics and philosophy that impact their behaviors and diplomacy, much like the elves and their wood fetish. The challenge here is allowing dwarves to have these things and not interfere with the sandbox nature of the game. Right now, dwarves are not evil, and so do not endorse slavery or genocide or any of the other horrible things players do through their dwarves. I would be in favor of having players be able to establish certain ethical codes at the start of the game that are unique to the fortress. In my head, this would make fortresses more analogous to Greek City-states, where different cities have different ethics and philosophy but an underlying unifying culture.

When you found your fortress, you can deviate from the ethical norms of your civ as much as you'd like, but the further off you go the more friction there is between your dwarven colonials and your parent civ; go too far and you may be more aptly named exiles than emigrants, and the parent civ could even treat you as hostile and declare war. Similarly, being so far off of the norms of the dwarves would likely bring you in line with the norms of the goblins, who would then be friendly to you and send caravans. These ethical changes need not be solely along the good/evil line; you could decide to share the Elves' wood fetish, and not import non-elf-kosher wood or wood items, or you could have a Spartan ideal where only the physically fit are allowed to stay, or fortresses where dwarves must align with certain gods or spheres... you get the idea.

Well, I've spent enough time rambling. Time to go burn the zombies.

[Thadius]

Well if we're going for a philosophy made by the dwarves, I'd have to say all of mine have been 'Live long if you can, and prosper by any means necessary.  Any means, Urist.  So pull that lever, or by Armok, I'll lock you outside come next siege.'

If we're going for a philosophy that we can apply to the dwarves, well, there's not much you can do.  After all, it is an Ascii sandbox game.  Any cruelty, real or fictional, is just a product of those that imposed it.  I think Nietzsche said it best.

"He who plays with dwarves must take care that he does not become a dwarf.  And when you stare into DwarfFort, Dwarffort stares back into you."

[metime00]

Sig'd.

This thread is full of win

[Ephemeriis]

Dwarves have always struck me as odd creatures...

Pretty much anywhere they appear, they've got some common traits.  They like to live underground.  They mine.  They make things out of stone and metal.  They like booze.  They build absolutely ginormous structures underground.

What kind of mindset does all that imply?

It seems like they're almost innately greedy.  Like they really enjoy digging up piles of gold and silver and adamantium for no other reason than simply to have the gold and silver and adamantium.

They also seem kind of paranoid.  Or fearful.  Or insecure.  They're always digging into the ground, building gigantic fortresses that should be able to withstand just about anything.  You seldom see these fortresses under attack...  Yet they're frequently empty or abandoned.  Dwarves are often portrayed as a race in decline. 

Are the fortresses there for psychological reasons?  Are they trying to hold back entropy itself, rather than the goblin hordes?

Maybe they, as a race, are deeply aware of their mortality.  They know, at a fundamental level, that the entire species is going extinct.  Maybe the best they can manage is to drink away the hours and try to build monuments that will outlive their species.

[V-Norrec]

Dwarves have always struck me as odd creatures...

Pretty much anywhere they appear, they've got some common traits.  They like to live underground.  They mine.  They make things out of stone and metal.  They like booze.  They build absolutely ginormous structures underground.

What kind of mindset does all that imply?

It seems like they're almost innately greedy.  Like they really enjoy digging up piles of gold and silver and adamantium for no other reason than simply to have the gold and silver and adamantium.

They also seem kind of paranoid.  Or fearful.  Or insecure.  They're always digging into the ground, building gigantic fortresses that should be able to withstand just about anything.  You seldom see these fortresses under attack...  Yet they're frequently empty or abandoned.  Dwarves are often portrayed as a race in decline. 

Are the fortresses there for psychological reasons?  Are they trying to hold back entropy itself, rather than the goblin hordes?

Maybe they, as a race, are deeply aware of their mortality.  They know, at a fundamental level, that the entire species is going extinct.  Maybe the best they can manage is to drink away the hours and try to build monuments that will outlive their species.

too deep man, too deep.

[monk12]

Dwarves have always struck me as odd creatures...

Pretty much anywhere they appear, they've got some common traits.  They like to live underground.  They mine.  They make things out of stone and metal.  They like booze.  They build absolutely ginormous structures underground.

What kind of mindset does all that imply?

It seems like they're almost innately greedy.  Like they really enjoy digging up piles of gold and silver and adamantium for no other reason than simply to have the gold and silver and adamantium.

They also seem kind of paranoid.  Or fearful.  Or insecure.  They're always digging into the ground, building gigantic fortresses that should be able to withstand just about anything.  You seldom see these fortresses under attack...  Yet they're frequently empty or abandoned.  Dwarves are often portrayed as a race in decline. 

Are the fortresses there for psychological reasons?  Are they trying to hold back entropy itself, rather than the goblin hordes?

Maybe they, as a race, are deeply aware of their mortality.  They know, at a fundamental level, that the entire species is going extinct.  Maybe the best they can manage is to drink away the hours and try to build monuments that will outlive their species.

The bulk of that is actually very in line with Tolkien's description of the dwarves in The Hobbit. The dwarves are all kind of irresponsible dicks to Bilbo who want to win the treasure back from Smaug by any means necessary. When they do get the treasure back, they are unwilling to use any of it to help the humans rebuild despite their aid earlier, and despite the fact that they have a fortress full of treasure and nothing to do with any of it. Thorin gets particularly crazy/paranoid when he finds the Arkenstone, the heart of the Lonely Mountain, and is convinced everyone is going to take his birthright. This dickery brings them to the verge of war with the humans and the elves, and to the brink of self-destruction, before everybody's racism towards the goblins saves the day.

And its not just the dwarves who were with Bilbo either; there's the infamous Mines of Moria, an entire prosperous nation that "dug too deep, and too greedily" of which I need not elaborate further. And lets not forget Thrain, Thorin's Father, King under the Lonely Mountain, whose quest for wealth made his fortress famous, rich, and ultimately attracted the attention of Smaug. And then there was Dain, Thorin's cousin or whatever who was leading a relief army to the Lonely Mountain to help secure it against the humans and elves...

Pretty much every dwarf in the Hobbit is greedy, gluttonous, and the entire history of the dwarven people is a story of short dudes who were good at finding nice stuff in dirt but were eventually undone by it.


Also, Dwarves as Nihilists are a terrifying concept. I could just see a human wandering Undergrotto or Boatmurdered, finding these fantastic treasures and statues until they come to a giant statue of a dwarf, hollow, empty, with the inscription "I am Urist, King of Kings. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair." Not a soul remains...

[Cyntrox]

Elves aren't that bad. They come and trade with you, giving you food, drink, cloth, lumber and rare animals. If they were really as bad as people claim, they would just race the goblins for the opportunity to burn your fort to the ground, not engage in trade and diplomacy.

Goblins bring me iron. Elves don't.

Goblins > Elves