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[bloodnok]

I read it and I'm simply not experiencing "suspension of disbelief". I see nothing wrong that arsenal guy isn't giving you whole arsenal right at the start of game. Well you know you are agent not a goddamn commando, right? Few lock-picks, multi-tools are more appropriate than box of grenades and machine gun.

But he won't give you more than a pittance of lockpicks or multitools either, now, will he? You're stretching desperately here.

(Note also that if you read what I wrote I said "box of stun grenades, two pistol clips, three taser charges". Perfectly appropriate given his love of non-lethal takedowns and the fact that, say, UNATCO issue you a pistol so presumably expect that you may wish to fire your pistol at people on occasion.)

[janekk]

Text

Do you really need more than few? Its not like you get equipment once a month or something like that, more like every mission (kinda like every agent would!). Do you need to haul box of grenades with you every mission? Oh and the one stretching is you. You are putting Deus Ex in "Worst Games You've Ever Played?" thread because you feel arsenal guy isn't giving you enough ammo and stuff, all your complains are nitpicks of this calibre. Sure you may not like it, your personal matter, but worst game ever? Seriously. That IS stretching.

[bloodnok]

Do you really need more than few?

Who knows, when the mission begins? You could be running into anything.

Oh and the one stretching is you. You are putting Deus Ex in "Worst Games You've Ever Played?" thread because you feel arsenal guy isn't giving you enough ammo and stuff

Well, no, actually. I realise you don't comprehend what the actual issue is here, but that's not it. The point, for the third time, is that a risk with strong story is that it conflicts directly with gameplay, with the supply situation merely an example of the problem - Denton's complete incompetence at game start is another example. The short supplies make perfect sense from a gameplay point of view (which, as far as I can make out, is the exact opposite of the straw man you've attributed to me) but much less sense from a story point of view.

Also if you'd read the original post I specifically said it's hard to pick a "worst" game but I feel Deus Ex is the most overhyped. It's not a terrible game, but it's at best mediocre, and to hear people talk you'd think it was the Second Coming.

[dragnar]

Denton's complete incompetence at game start is another example.

Wait what? At the start of the game you single-handedly wipe out a huge number of terrorists with nothing but some basic equipment. You aren't given more because UNATCO is testing you to see just how good their new super weapon is. And you don't have any of the many nano-upgrades yet because they had just finished production, there weren't any canisters available before then.

[Virtz]

Do you really need more than few? Its not like you get equipment once a month or something like that, more like every mission (kinda like every agent would!). Do you need to haul box of grenades with you every mission?

SWAT tends to think so. As well as pretty much any organization that sends a few well trained people to tackle many. Hell, you're one person up against the people who captured Gunther, you'd think they'd have doubts about your success with limited equipment.

Also, do you see nothing wrong with UNATCO's top agent aiming like a man after a cerebral hemorrhage?

I don't really find these things to be deal breakers to me, but they're a pretty big oversight writing-wise.

Oh and the one stretching is you. You are putting Deus Ex in "Worst Games You've Ever Played?" thread because you feel arsenal guy isn't giving you enough ammo and stuff, all your complains are nitpicks of this calibre. Sure you may not like it, your personal matter, but worst game ever? Seriously. That IS stretching.

This I'd kind of agree on. There are far worse games out there and this is supposed to be a "worst game ever" thread, not a "most overhyped game ever" one.

[bloodnok]

Denton's complete incompetence at game start is another example.

Wait what? At the start of the game you single-handedly wipe out a huge number of terrorists with nothing but some basic equipment.

Which is a nice piece of gameplay, given that Denton - as so beautifully put above - aims like a man after a cerebral haemorrhage and furthermore is equally inept in every other area of his job. That first mission's one of the better bits of Deus Ex, not least because "climb down air shaft and retrieve blue post-it note" hasn't become repetitive. But it does rather strain matters in terms of the story, especially as (as mentioned upthread) we know from the tutorial that UNATCO could rewrite his brain to make him supremely capable [1] but don't because... ?

Yeah, I know it's "worst games", but like anyone who's waded through Kongregate, I'm not sure that's really a question I can answer. "Most overhyped" is a kind of worse, no?

[1] When you're on the firing range, one of your weapon skills is temporarily raised to maximum.

[Akura]

Do you really need more than few? Its not like you get equipment once a month or something like that, more like every mission (kinda like every agent would!). Do you need to haul box of grenades with you every mission?

SWAT tends to think so. As well as pretty much any organization that sends a few well trained people to tackle many. Hell, you're one person up against the people who captured Gunther, you'd think they'd have doubts about your success with limited equipment.

Also, do you see nothing wrong with UNATCO's top agent aiming like a man after a cerebral hemorrhage?

Wait, wasn't Gunther captured because he disobeyed orders, attacked a fortified position by himself, probably charged in like an idiot(stealth tends to work a lot better), and probably suffered a mechanical failure(a noted problem among the mech-augmented)?

Also, how is JC one of UNATCO's top agents? I thought the game started on his very first day? (I've only played the begining part, up to blowing up the warehouse generator)

As for not getting enough ammo on request, at the start of the game, you're given a choice of a sniper rifle, a minicrossbow(those two for stealth), or a fracking rocket launcher. Didn't UNATCO HQ have a problem with someone stealing from the armory as well? Given the size of that armory, someone looting it probably would put a stretch on ammo supplies. Further more, wasn't the situation at the start of the game that the NSF blew up one of UNATCO's supply shipments(though much of that probably was Ambrosia)?

[janekk]

Well, no, actually. I realise you don't comprehend what the actual issue is here, but that's not it.

I understand what you are getting at. Story says something and then in actual game its completely different or simply doesn't make much sense (I'm a super agent, why can't I aim straight?). Last time I played was years ago but I don't remember any glaring game breaking issues, they all are minor issues. Sort of like seeing some background character in a historical movie for split second running in sneakers makes this movie overhyped crap. Exaggerating much? You see devs could make it more "realistic", so you would start with every skill maxed out, with formidable arsenal etc. but I'm asking where is fun in this if you have everything from the start? BTW "overhyped" implies its bad. Oh wait you admitted yourself you are calling DE worst game ever

"Most overhyped" is a kind of worse, no?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Do you really need more than few? Its not like you get equipment once a month or something like that, more like every mission (kinda like every agent would!). Do you need to haul box of grenades with you every mission?

SWAT tends to think so. As well as pretty much any organization that sends a few well trained people to tackle many. Hell, you're one person up against the people who captured Gunther, you'd think they'd have doubts about your success with limited equipment.

Also, do you see nothing wrong with UNATCO's top agent aiming like a man after a cerebral hemorrhage?

Wait, wasn't Gunther captured because he disobeyed orders, attacked a fortified position by himself, probably charged in like an idiot(stealth tends to work a lot better), and probably suffered a mechanical failure(a noted problem among the mech-augmented)?

Also, how is JC one of UNATCO's top agents? I thought the game started on his very first day? (I've only played the begining part, up to blowing up the warehouse generator)

As for not getting enough ammo on request, at the start of the game, you're given a choice of a sniper rifle, a minicrossbow(those two for stealth), or a fracking rocket launcher. Didn't UNATCO HQ have a problem with someone stealing from the armory as well? Given the size of that armory, someone looting it probably would put a stretch on ammo supplies. Further more, wasn't the situation at the start of the game that the NSF blew up one of UNATCO's supply shipments(though much of that probably was Ambrosia)?

Yeah, Gunther just charged at them without support, like he'll do if you give him a knife/gun. You'll see why JC is their top agent soon enough.
UNATCO had an ammo thief, Carter takes it very seriously.

The NSF stole the Ambrosia shipment, though.

[bloodnok]

You see devs could make it more "realistic", so you would start with every skill maxed out, with formidable arsenal etc. but I'm asking where is fun in this if you have everything from the start?

You still don't get it. Of course I recognise that would be no fun (although I think initially letting the player run around with lots of gear so that the inevitable change of sides has real consequences could be interesting). The point, and I really think I am done trying to explain it now, is that one of the reasons why "lots of story" is hard to get right is that when lots of story clashes with gameplay the result is more jarring than when a minimal story doesn't really make sense in light of the gameplay. Deus Ex doesn't get it right.

BTW "overhyped" implies its bad. Oh wait you admitted yourself you are calling DE worst game ever

Well, no. I explained quite clearly why I don't think literal "worst game ever" is something I can express a meaningful opinion on; and of course something could be pretty good and still overhyped - I think the earlier mention of Bioshock is in much the same category, since I'm sure the person posting that has played worse games than Bioshock!

[Megaman]

I don't get what you're talking about with story clashing with game play. When you start the game you're given a short cut scene and a few speaking parts, and instantly your outside the dock with terrorists prowling about. It cut to the game play rather fast.

[Jackrabbit]

So you are of the opinion that story should not be the main focus of a game because it gets in the way of playing the game?

[janekk]

I don't get what you're talking about with story clashing with game play.

Ehh I think he means that there is more of these: "Denton's complete incompetence at game start is another example" and "arsenal guy is cheapskate" or something like that, at least that's what I think he means by "lots of story". I really have hard time to get what he is driving at. Maybe that's because I'm dumb, maybe that's because of language barrier (my English may sound not bad but that is only because I spend a lot of time to write with dictionaries and such).

[bloodnok]

So you are of the opinion that story should not be the main focus of a game because it gets in the way of playing the game?

Not quite. I'm of the opinion that story often _does_ get in the way of playing the game, and this is obviously much more likely to happen if you have a lot of story.

I'm not saying it can't be done well, but it is far more often done badly, and in my view it's done badly in Deus Ex.

[Eugenitor]

Dammit, I was hoping to end this pointless argument by mentioning John Romero's Abortion. Let's try again.

I. M. Meen!