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[FreakyCheeseMan]

I still feel like DF should have a stored pathfinding system, though I recognize such as difficult- though not that computationally difficult, depending on the fortress design.

Stored "nodes" with pathways between them; you map to your closest node (with some way of knowing what that is, so you don't go all the way through the fortress to get to one on the other side of a wall) and from there the nodes know how to move between them. It would need to be updated as the fortress changes, and probably need to store door-related knowledge, but it still seems like that would be compartmentalizeable. I love that word.

[Sunken]

A z-axis is not a significant threat to pathfinding (it certainly will potentially geometrically increase the pathfinding cost, though) because we ultimately still have pathing weights that will make sense - diverting around a wall on the z-axis by climbing stairs to go over that wall, and back down, is fundamentally the same as pathing around it on the x- or y- axis by walking to a doorway to bypass the wall.  This is because going up one z-axis level before moving across seveal x- or y-axis spaces moves you just as far as just moving on the x- and y-axis alone, excepting the cost of moving across the z-axis.

Well... z-distance is not taken into account the same way as x- and y distances are - as everyone knows who's had a mine tunnel run past 20 levels straight below a workshop and the occupant happily trudging all the way down there to get a stone instead of scooting four tiles over to the stockpile on the same level... So it's already a bit of a problem.

This, however, goes completely out the window when you introduce portals that can skip you around.  Suddenly, the fastest route becomes jumping through hyperspace by walking away from the destination to reach a nearby portal 10 tiles away from which it can simply walk a few steps in another dimension to find a portal that will drop it 10 tiles away from its destination in the original dimension.  Because pathing away from your destination suddenly becomes a viable means of shortening the route to your destination, the notion that the shortest route is the closest thing to a straight line you can get is no longer true.

This incidentally also means that the default traffic cost (2) makes all pathing tragically inefficient. Even across an open plain, the A* search will still try hundreds of sidetracks and detours, just in case it find that perfect 1-cost bypass.

[Zalminen]

This, however, goes completely out the window when you introduce portals that can skip you around.  Suddenly, the fastest route becomes jumping through hyperspace by walking away from the destination to reach a nearby portal 10 tiles away from which it can simply walk a few steps in another dimension to find a portal that will drop it 10 tiles away from its destination in the original dimension.  Because pathing away from your destination suddenly becomes a viable means of shortening the route to your destination, the notion that the shortest route is the closest thing to a straight line you can get is no longer true.

This incidentally also means that the default traffic cost (2) makes all pathing tragically inefficient. Even across an open plain, the A* search will still try hundreds of sidetracks and detours, just in case it find that perfect 1-cost bypass.

Indeed. Unless you're going to be using a lot of traffic designations, switching to PATH_COST:1:1:5:25 is much better for FPS.

[Cotes]

This is Dwarf Fortress, not a Tracy Hickman & Margaret Weis fantasy novel... I mean sure such thing would be an interesting mod if it were possible, but let's not suddenly jump into the deep end on high fantasy scale in the vanilla game.

[NW_Kohaku]

This is Dwarf Fortress, not a Tracy Hickman & Margaret Weis fantasy novel... I mean sure such thing would be an interesting mod if it were possible, but let's not suddenly jump into the deep end on high fantasy scale in the vanilla game.

I would like to point out that currently, Hell exists as a series of seperate holes through the earth's (well, planet's) molten mantle.  You could say that's basically just another dimension right now, and it wouldn't make much difference.

[Cotes]

This is Dwarf Fortress, not a Tracy Hickman & Margaret Weis fantasy novel... I mean sure such thing would be an interesting mod if it were possible, but let's not suddenly jump into the deep end on high fantasy scale in the vanilla game.

I would like to point out that currently, Hell exists as a series of seperate holes through the earth's (well, planet's) molten mantle.  You could say that's basically just another dimension right now, and it wouldn't make much difference.

True, but it's still not too far into the high fantasy. Adding multiple dimensions based on quite overused ancient theory of elements is pretty much on the same level as adding mage dwarves.

I mean sure, there's hell and it bends the rules towards high fantasy, but it's not really " *Poof* magic!" yet. It fits the setting of DF without pushing its fictional logic too much.

[NW_Kohaku]

True, but it's still not too far into the high fantasy. Adding multiple dimensions based on quite overused ancient theory of elements is pretty much on the same level as adding mage dwarves.

I mean sure, there's hell and it bends the rules towards high fantasy, but it's not really " *Poof* magic!" yet. It fits the setting of DF without pushing its fictional logic too much.

That falls back from an argument against multiple dimensions into an argument against some particular dimensions. 

One of the threads I saw recently was "Mine The Moon", where someone wanted to build a tower to the moon, and dig into it, where it was further suggested that mining "too un-deep" into the moon would breach Valhalla, and send Einherjar of all the dead heroes from the legends page down upon your fortress from the heavens above.

Or in other words, we can always do other dimensions.

[Cotes]

True, but it's still not too far into the high fantasy. Adding multiple dimensions based on quite overused ancient theory of elements is pretty much on the same level as adding mage dwarves.

I mean sure, there's hell and it bends the rules towards high fantasy, but it's not really " *Poof* magic!" yet. It fits the setting of DF without pushing its fictional logic too much.

That falls back from an argument against multiple dimensions into an argument against some particular dimensions. 

One of the threads I saw recently was "Mine The Moon", where someone wanted to build a tower to the moon, and dig into it, where it was further suggested that mining "too un-deep" into the moon would breach Valhalla, and send Einherjar of all the dead heroes from the legends page down upon your fortress from the heavens above.

Or in other words, we can always do other dimensions.

 Sure, but it'd should to be bit more than "'zap* magical portal, you are on moon!". Hell, as it is in DF isn't really anything like a extra dimension either. It's situate at a simple xyz-coordinates. It's just more z-dimensions, you could say.
 Likewise building a space tower to moon wouldn't really be a new dimension if you'd had to pass through the conventional xyz-grid to get there.

[Levi]

I actually really like the idea of multiple dimensions too.  It would be a fun late-game mechanic, think of all the things you could do:

1)  Build a sky fortress in the plane of air, while bringing in rocks from the plane of earth.
2)  Build a fire trap utilizing the plane of fire.
3)  Channel magma into the plane of water and build a fortress out of the obsidian.
4)  Invade a hell dimension so you can outfit your dwarfs in valuable succubus leather.  Sacrificing dwarf babies is necessary to open the portal. 
5)  Maybe have a choice to embark in the underworld with no surface access.  Complete subterranean fun!

[NW_Kohaku]

Personally, I'm not big on "elemental planes", myself, but I would think it would be neat to have something based on alternate dimensions, such as, say, a dimension that is another planet with completely different sorts of life. So we could find a portal to a land with a massive oxygen content, where you can find 20-foot insects and ferns ruling the planet.

Heck, we could even get a little "Stargate" about the whole thing.

[Dakkan]

Personally, I'm not big on "elemental planes", myself, but I would think it would be neat to have something based on alternate dimensions, such as, say, a dimension that is another planet with completely different sorts of life. So we could find a portal to a land with a massive oxygen content, where you can find 20-foot insects and ferns ruling the planet.

Heck, we could even get a little "Stargate" about the whole thing.

I agree with staying away from strict "elemental" planes, but I would definitely like to see planes with certain world generation parameters  maxed, like a plane with an extremely low max elevation so we see a lot more oceans, and a plane with really high min elevation so we see a large amount of mountains, and the same with min/max temperatures. I don't think passing through a fancy dimensional gate into a plane that is pretty much the same as where you came from would be fun, or interesting.

To be honest my favorite D&D book was the Manual of the Planes.

[NW_Kohaku]

Well, I doubt we'll see "worlds" on the other side of portals - we only really get as much as (and probably less than) the embark tiles give us of the starting dimension.  (Of course, maybe adventure mode...  But then, this might force a full worldgen event on discovery of any new portal, which would be potentially bothersome.)

That said, I do think that it would be interesting to have alternate rules of physics, or at least, very different sorts of atmospheres and geologies in different planes.  (Low gravity, flying islands, supergravity, noxious atmospheres that force ingenious means of isolating your explorers from the atmosphere, etc.)

[Dakkan]

Well, with the army arc coming up and being able to send groups of dwarves out into the world, I don't see a reason why the planes would have to be limited to the embark screen size. I wouldn't mind sending an army of dwarves into an alternate plane to plunder.