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[Virex]

Well if you don't know what indicates an aquifer, finding an aquiferless area is like trying to shoot flies in the dark.

[Hammurabi]

Well if you don't know what indicates an aquifer, finding an aquiferless area is like trying to shoot flies in the dark.

...or just use the site finder to find an aquiferless embark area.

[Snes]

Well if you don't know what indicates an aquifer, finding an aquiferless area is like trying to shoot flies in the dark.

...or just use the site finder to find an aquiferless embark area.

...only to find that it's plopped you in the middle of a mountain range with no trees or water.

[NW_Kohaku]

...or just use the site finder to find an aquiferless embark area.

...only to find that it's plopped you in the middle of a mountain range with no trees or water.

Site Finder will not put you in a place you cannot embark.

Of course, there really isn't such a thing as a "site with no trees or water" when all areas in the game now have caves filled with subterranean trees and very often subterranean lakes that merely require a 40-z-direct stairwell exploration or a use of reveal.exe to find.  It's just a matter of limiting your exposure to danger when you tap those resources.

Plus, that ignores the whole "you can generally guess where the aquifers are" part, since they generally only appear in fairly flat, typically heavily forested land.

[Virex]

You're thinking from the point of view from an experienced player here. Now, I do agree that toady should not spend time on documenting things or making the UI better until after V1 comes out (we can figure that out ourselves if we need to), but some apparently think differently.

[NW_Kohaku]

You're thinking from the point of view from an experienced player here. Now, I do agree that toady should not spend time on documenting things or making the UI better until after V1 comes out (we can figure that out ourselves if we need to), but some apparently think differently.

Maybe I'm a little strange, but I didn't have nearly as much trouble as people seem to keep claiming they have with undestanding how the game works.  I didn't even really have patience for a tutorial, I just went to the wiki, and looked things up for three days, and I was ready to start my first fortress, which I managed to get up to having the queen arrive, and building a major waterworks, all on my first try.

The game is really not that hard, and is actually a little too shallow for my tastes (which is why people spend so much time doing "stupid dwarf tricks" and other megaprojects), and I hope some more serious depth gets added soon.

Hell, most of the resource dependencies are, if anything, too simplified to be considered "intuitive".

This thread is, in fact, pretty demonstrative of what sort of "problem" causes many of these "make it friendlier to newbies" threads: The OP, after seeing a post in the forum, where a person used "*****" instead of tildes simply because he didn't want to go out of his way to copy-paste the actual double-tilde symbol (which is entirely reasonable), decides to make this post about how difficult that is to understand, only to take that back when he was told it was actually the double-tildes that the game consistantly uses to represent water.  This was something he would have figured out if he had looked in the game itself, or if he had read the wiki before posting.  Instead he made a post about how hard it is for newbies, again, only to take it back when he had realized his mistake, and yet there are still people going on about how hard this is to understand.  (I'd like to take the time out to say that I don't mean to direct undue hard feelings towards Hammurabi if this sounds harsh towards him/her, since he/she was at least adult enough to recognize and correct the mistake he/she made.)

This only proves how it is the knee-jerk reaction of apparently quite a few posters here to just post complaints about things in the suggestions forum the instant they don't understand something because they can't be bothered to even try looking it up.  This sort of thing can happen no matter how simplified and user-friendly you make an interface, you're still going to get these knee-jerk complaints.

[Virex]

Well if people consistently trip over it, it's an issue (and we've had at least 2 people stating it wasn't directly obvious). If it's a positive feature or needs addressing is up to you to decide. (Obfuscations and strange conventions do help weed out those that aren't really worthy of playing this game. Hell, the constant bickering about the "broken military" of DF-2010 makes me think there are a lot more here that should just bugger off then we originally expected.)

[Hammurabi]

This thread is, in fact, pretty demonstrative of what sort of "problem" causes many of these "make it friendlier to newbies" threads: The OP, after seeing a post in the forum, where a person used "*****" instead of tildes simply because he didn't want to go out of his way to copy-paste the actual double-tilde symbol (which is entirely reasonable), decides to make this post about how difficult that is to understand, only to take that back when he was told it was actually the double-tildes that the game consistantly uses to represent water.  This was something he would have figured out if he had looked in the game itself, or if he had read the wiki before posting.

Please don't corrupt the facts.  You've distorted several things so far.  Let me clarify:

A. ******** vs  ≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈
I always play with a tileset.    I aways realized that the blue watery tiles were water.  The issue isn't really ******** vs  ≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈ as I would have the same problem no matter which characters were used or if I used a tileset or not.

B. ≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈ on embark screen
I learned just a few days ago that ≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈ on the embark screen represented the presence of an aquifer at those stone levels.  As I said above, I fully understood that ≈≈≈ (or the tiles I see) meant water.  I just didn't realize that it stood for an aquifer.  As far as I knew, it may have indicated the presence of underground rivers or underground lakes. 
But

C. Read the wiki
NW_Kohaku says if I had "looked in the game" or "read the wiki" I wouldn't have had any problem.  There is nothing in the game nor wiki that indicates that the water symbols represent an aquifer as opposed to some other water. (see B above).  Prove me wrong, here are the links:
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Embark
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Aquifer


My suggestion:
Replace ≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈ with ≈AQUIFER≈.
The current implementation isn't obvious to everyone.  The suggestion would clear it right up, with very little effort by Toady. 

[marcusbjol]

Maybe I'm a little strange, but I didn't have nearly as much trouble as people seem to keep claiming they have with undestanding how the game works.  I didn't even really have patience for a tutorial, I just went to the wiki, and looked things up for three days, and I was ready to start my first fortress, which I managed to get up to having the queen arrive, and building a major waterworks, all on my first try.

Well Kohaku, you are an unusal person.  But then again, the average DF player is.  To gain market share, the game should be more accessable (but as Toady has made clear, he is not interested in market share).  While Raiding in WoW, I was talking to a friend about DF and EVERYONE was interested.  Until I mentioned that it was difficult to understand (looked things up for three days) and the UI was ACSII.

So Hammurabi, what would be better? I am not sure spelling out water there would be more clear.

[Hammurabi]

So Hammurabi, what would be better? I am not sure spelling out water there would be more clear.

Like I said, I'm not confused that it is water, I'm confused that the water means there is an aquifer at this embark, as opposed to a river, lake, or ocean.  There are several ways t use the word "aquifer" like this (not all at once):

[NW_Kohaku]

Please don't corrupt the facts.  You've distorted several things so far.  Let me clarify:

A. ******** vs  ≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈
I always play with a tileset.    I aways realized that the blue watery tiles were water.  The issue isn't really ******** vs  ≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈ as I would have the same problem no matter which characters were used or if I used a tileset or not.

I'm sorry, I don't see how this is relevant to me corrupting any facts?  If you recognized that the water tiles are water when you look at the game, how am I wrong? 

B. ≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈ on embark screen
I learned just a few days ago that ≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈ on the embark screen represented the presence of an aquifer at those stone levels.  As I said above, I fully understood that ≈≈≈ (or the tiles I see) meant water.  I just didn't realize that it stood for an aquifer.  As far as I knew, it may have indicated the presence of underground rivers or underground lakes. 
But

Well, it's pretty hard to imagine underground lakes being in the first few feet of soil, as they exist only as part of caves now, and underground rivers don't exist anymore.

Of course, if you haven't looked that up, all your concerns over what it may be would be cleared up by the big warning pop-up that says "HEY! THERE'S AN AQUIFER HERE! YOU SURE YOU WANT THAT?" when you try to embark there.  I dare say that would clear up any confusion over whether it is something other than an aquifer.

My suggestion:
Replace ≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈ with ≈AQUIFER≈.
The current implementation isn't obvious to everyone.  The suggestion would clear it right up, with very little effort by Toady.

Nothing will be obvious to everyone, no matter how much you spell it out for them.

C. Read the wiki
NW_Kohaku says if I had "looked in the game" or "read the wiki" I wouldn't have had any problem.  There is nothing in the game nor wiki that indicates that the water symbols represent an aquifer as opposed to some other water. (see B above).  Prove me wrong, here are the links:
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Embark
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Aquifer

Well, what you really need is Soil or Layer, which describe the layers, and what they mean, but oh well, no reason it can't be restated everywhere, right?

OK, how about in "Embark", where it says:

An aquifer is a layer of soil or stone saturated with water, and a biome may contain upwards of 3 aquifer layers (theoretically more, but such would be rare to say the least). These are represented with ≈≈≈≈≈ symbols in the soil layers. Embarking on an aquifer brings up a warning before embark as an aquifer can significantly raise the difficulty of starting a fort. For specific tactics on working with an aquifer see the main page.

Or

Where they are found

Aquifers are found in soil layers and some porous rock layers. They often span several rock layers. They are recognizable at the embark screen by the blue ≈ symbols to the right of that layer.

Thanks for playing!    Aren't wiki's wonderful? Remember kids, our wikis are everyone's wikis, so if there is more verified information you can share on our wikis, help make our wikis wonderful by adding to it.

[cephalo]

If you think that is slightly confusing, just wait until you try to set up a military schedule. Oooouuuch.

[NW_Kohaku]

I'd like to reiterate that I am not arguing against people who don't understand everything necessarily, who, instead of using the wiki or, because gosh darnit, it just isn't helpful enough, there is an IRC channel or people in the forum, or even a "DF Gameplay Questions" forum, which is specifically dedicated to answering questions players may have. 

I am talking about people who, if they do not understand something, think that the solution is to demand that the game change to the thing that they think they would have understood.  (Again, no guarantees that they would have understood it, even then.  Besides which, not all symbols or idioms are universal, and changing to appease one would just as likely cause problems for another, anyway.)

There is a pretty major difference between the two.

In fact, Hammurabi's major argument now is "I know it means water, but I didn't know what kind of water", while the title of this thread is, in fact, "***** means water", not aquifer, water.  He wanted it changed to "water", without clarifying any specific kind, the exact problem Hammurabi is now trying to say is the basis for his argument.  When you change the fundamental basis of your argument, it tends to show that what you are trying to accomplish with your argument is likely not what you say it is...

[Hammurabi]

I am talking about people who, if they do not understand something, think that the solution is to demand that the game change to the thing that they think they would have understood.

I made a suggestion in the Suggestion forum.  I never demanded anything.  Not sure why you are trying to be argumentative.

[Vertigon]

The aquifer thing was massively easy to grasp for me, but I just found out there's a reason for that order. I thought it was just listing the stone types. I didn't realize they were sorted by layer.