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[de5me7]

ive been told that medieval / darkage swords were rarely sharp as this was found to be combat ineffective. Although the tips maybe sharp for stabbing the blade was used more has a bludgeoning device. The logic i was given for this was that sharp blades go stuck in the victims corpses and thus left the warrior open to attack.

[Hyndis]

Your average soldier in a medieval army didn't have armor. Generally only the very rich soldiers could afford their own armor. The average peasant just put on many layers of clothing, called it padded armor, and hoped for the best.

[RavingManiac]

Blunt weapons already ignore chainmail.

[Iden]

ive been told that medieval / darkage swords were rarely sharp as this was found to be combat ineffective. Although the tips maybe sharp for stabbing the blade was used more has a bludgeoning device. The logic i was given for this was that sharp blades go stuck in the victims corpses and thus left the warrior open to attack.

Depends on your definition of sharp. With a strong attack, even a dull blade can rend flesh like butter.

The reason for that, as far as I know, is not for weapons getting stuck. As above, a dull blade, a dull axe, even a hammer could potentially get stuck in your foe.

Medieval swords were generally not razor sharp. Though it depended on what you were doing. What it comes down to is a simple fact that the sharper the blade is, the easier it is to damage. Sword-on-sword combat could be very harsh and damaging to a blade if it were too sharp. It would be very easy to damage, and therefore more likely to break. If you were fighting heavily armored opponents, it's likely you would go with a slightly duller blade for these reasons. Due to heavy armor, you are also less likely to make contact with flesh, so you don't need a lot of sharpness.

For above reasons, power also factors in. The sharper a blade, the easier it will cut. But even a dull blade with enough power behind it will rend flesh quite adequately. Medieval blades were large and broad, containing a lot of mass, and therefore a lot of power. A swing with medieval sword possessed power, and you needed less of an edge to damage an opponent. Because of this power, it was still used against heavily armored foes. A good hit could potentially dent heavy armor, or crack a helmet if you were strong and lucky.

I would not say a sword was used as MORE of a bludgeoning weapon. It did have bludgeoning qualities. But the sword is so greatly known as a weapon because it was so versatile. Due to it's mass it could potentially shatter bones, you could bash someone with the pommel, it's long blade could cleave flesh, it's length could keep opponents at bay, it could run a person through with it's point, and it's long blade with the hilt (which protected the hand) made it very useful as a defensive weapon as well. It did just about everything you wanted it to. It was a well-balanced, versatile weapon. It just depended who your opponent was.

Against plate amour, you are only likely to be doing bludgeoning damage until you find an opening in your opponents defenses. Because of the increased surface area hitting the heavy armor, the impact would be weaker across a larger area. And it's unlikely you're killing anybody in heavy armor by bludgeoning them with a sword. Not nearly as reliable for bludgeoning as a hammer.

[Funk]

Blunt weapons already ignore chainmail.

as it has to be flexible chain armor looses to blunt every time.
the level of armor in a medieval army is base on many things, but as rules:
1) the rich have the money to buy the best armor and arms.
2) "to the victor belong the spoils"mercenarys and huscarls and other professional fighters get better kit from the dead.
3) armor and weapons are passed on down the generations.

[marcusbjol]

Engraved gothic plate was decorative.  Most of the armor we still have from the middle ages is decorative in nature:  If it wasnt pretty, it got melted down and reused.  No one entered battle (except stupid nobility) wearing such armor.

If ya dont think armor that remains is not decroative, check out King Henry the VII's cod peice at http://www.hrp.org.uk/Assets/Cod-piece%20(mp%20asset).jpg.  FYI, the cod piece covers the groin and is designed to be removed so one can relieve themselves without removing all the armor. 

I too have done SCA combat.  Everything is effectively a club.  Being hit hard in the head, many times (the head is the open spot for new fighters, it takes abit for that to get trained out), I can tell you having a big solid metal thing over my head allows me to type this message today.  In the order of how I would precieve each blow:

No helm:  Unconsious.
Helm with no padding:  It would really hurt, be loud, but would not disable.
Helm with inadequate padding (my helm for a while):  As with normal padding, but the occasional blow would cause an edge to dig in and I would bleed.
Helm with adequate padding(1/2" closed cell foam, usually made from cheep blue camping pads):  Annoying to get hit in the head.

The worst hit I took with a club to the head was full speed from a guy who was known to hit hard.  The shot almost knocked me over (I am 6ft, he was 5'6") and my face just stung.

A big factor in how effective the helm perfromed, in respects to a club, is the weight of the armor.  DF has this wrong if the lightest stiffest armor is considered the best.  SCA combat helms min weight requirement is 12lbs.  Someone made an experimental aluminum helm that weighed 4lbs, he used it long enough to take 1 hit, and never used it again.  Almost broke his neck. 

Understanding that playing with fantastical platinum hammers is a nice fantasy, but DF does not take into account the energy it takes to swing a weapon of that mass.  An effective combat weapon for me weights all of 4 lbs.  I do not have the muscle mass to do much more.  The effective combat weapon for.. lets say the Rock... might be 15lbs.  Yes, I could swing the Rocks hammer a couple of times, but combat is more than just swinging the weapon.  All things being equal, If I were using a 4lb weapon and my opponent is using a 15lbs weapon, his swing frequency will be so slow I can ignore the weapon and just attack him.

Materials do not dictate outcomes either.  I retired my first helm after getting crease from an overhead wrap and the crease popping a weld seam.  The club was made of rattan (a wood) and the crease (you could place the club in the spot and it fit) was in the 12gague steel crown.  So, a piece of wood properly used, can break steel. 

The true defeat to plate armor are piercing weapons.  The piercing weapon focuses all its energy into a small area to do the damage.  This is true weather the source is a bullet, a sword thrust (a trained fencer can put the tip of his 4' long rapier in a 2" hole 6ft infront of him, an eye hole is a common target) or some spike attached to a pole (a war hammer).

[Hyndis]

Yup, the heavier the armor the more inertia it has. It has inertia just from being still, and so it takes more force to get it moving. If the armor is extremely light even a tiny impact will send it flying. If the armor is very heavy that same impact won't even budge it, and will probably just bounce off completely. Think of it like shooting a rubber band at two objects. One object is a styrofoam peanut. The other is a paperweight. The rubber band is the weapon, the peanut or paperweight is the armor. One of them will be effected by the impact, the other will not.

Weapon weights are a tradeoff. If you want to hit hard you want a very heavy weapon. A 20lb sledgehammer is going to hit HARD. Extremely hard. But good luck swinging it more than a couple times before you're exhausted and barely able to pick it up anymore! 

You want a weapon heavy enough to be able to do damage, but light enough that you can continue to use it for extended period of times. After all, while your two handed sword made out of lead might weigh 80lbs and will utterly destroy anything it hits due to sheer mass of the object, this is not a weapon usable for more than one or two swings.

Also if you miss, weapon mass works against you. If you miss while using a sledgehammer recovering is a pain, as all of that momentum is now flying paste the thing you're trying to hammer, straight into the ground. Sometimes even pulling you along with the sledgehammer. You're now completely off balance and completely vulnerable for counter-attack. And this is against an inanimate object, like a fence post. If your target is also actively moving and trying to avoid your hit, and you miss, you're in trouble.

[marcusbjol]

Several problems here - Weapon Weight, Weapon Balance, and Fatigue

Weight only determines how much a weapon weighs.

Balance is where the weight is in the weapon.  Swords balance point is between the hilt and midblade usually.  Its similar to a baseball bat.  A weapon where the weight is at the business end (mace or a pick), even with equal weight, requires more energy to move than a sword.

Fatigue - We have 2 types of muscles, one made for short-bursts of heavy exertions, the other made for long exertions.  We could use the short-burst to fight with, but endurance of someone lifting weights at the gym.  Skilled fighting is done using the endurance muscles. 

Weapons have to be accelerated to be used.  Humans can use 5lb weapon effectively, not use an 80lb one.  An ineffective weapon is one that would take time to swing and could be completely planned for in advance.  If it takes my opponent 5 seconds to setup a swing with his 80lb plantinum hammer of doom, I just step backwards for every swing he does.  The opponent is also carrying that 80lb hammer, which is going to limit his ability to dodge.  My opponent's weapon is moving so slow I can attack the weapon (step on it).

[Neonivek]

Understanding that playing with fantastical platinum hammers is a nice fantasy, but DF does not take into account the energy it takes to swing a weapon of that mass

This is in the works but indeed from what Toady has said on this subject he does want weapons to lose effectiveness if too much weight is applied. Gotta wait for Combat Arc (sorta)

As for Platinum Hammers indeed normally yes. Though speaking of this as a "Fantastical" game that takes place in a "Fantasy" world it wouldn't be too crazy for a fantastically strong individual to use such. Heck ignore super strong human beings... A Cyclops using a Platinum Club would be devistating.

The other problem with weight is that Shields protect against such attacks perfectly. A Nuke could hit your character and as long as the shield blocks it they are safe. This takes away one reason to have a lot of weight in your weapon.

[Vester]

Yup, the heavier the armor the more inertia it has. It has inertia just from being still, and so it takes more force to get it moving. If the armor is extremely light even a tiny impact will send it flying. If the armor is very heavy that same impact won't even budge it, and will probably just bounce off completely. Think of it like shooting a rubber band at two objects. One object is a styrofoam peanut. The other is a paperweight. The rubber band is the weapon, the peanut or paperweight is the armor. One of them will be effected by the impact, the other will not.

Weapon weights are a tradeoff. If you want to hit hard you want a very heavy weapon. A 20lb sledgehammer is going to hit HARD. Extremely hard. But good luck swinging it more than a couple times before you're exhausted and barely able to pick it up anymore! 

You want a weapon heavy enough to be able to do damage, but light enough that you can continue to use it for extended period of times. After all, while your two handed sword made out of lead might weigh 80lbs and will utterly destroy anything it hits due to sheer mass of the object, this is not a weapon usable for more than one or two swings.

Also if you miss, weapon mass works against you. If you miss while using a sledgehammer recovering is a pain, as all of that momentum is now flying paste the thing you're trying to hammer, straight into the ground. Sometimes even pulling you along with the sledgehammer. You're now completely off balance and completely vulnerable for counter-attack. And this is against an inanimate object, like a fence post. If your target is also actively moving and trying to avoid your hit, and you miss, you're in trouble.

Your average Greatsword weighed about 7 lb. Heavier ones (around 16-17 lb) would have been extremely ineffective in combat, if not downright unusable, so swords around that weight were probably ceremonial or decorative.

On the other hand, this applies for Human opponents. Let's say you're fighting a massive rock slug with casseritite skin (beware its poisonous eyeballs) that your sword can't dent no matter how hard you swing. However, it is so slow that fighting it is just a matter of walking back a few steps every minute and trying again.

In comes a dwarf with a 50 lb hammer. It takes a tremendous amount of effort to swing the hammer around to strike, but the force of the strike thanks to dwarven brawn and the weapon's weight shatter the rock slug's face. The end.

Basically, I keep on forgetting that this is a fantasy game, with potential opponents that could require specialized (read: really heavy) weapons to fight.

[Neonivek]

There was this one Pen and Paper RPG that actually calculated the force of a Charging Lance (with horse). It was so great that they actually inputted it into the game as one of the only ways to slay a dragon.

There are ways to use the great force of some of even the heavier weapons. (especially if your exceptionally strong.)

[Iden]

I think an important thing to remember is this: Urist McSkilledSwordsdwarf is skilled with a sword. The intricacies of Combat [with a sword] are already known to him. How to swing, how effective his swings are, where to swing, footwork and how to move, how not to swing, how to not over-extend himself -- all of these things are known to him. Even as far as pacing should be taken into account. An experienced fighter knows when he needs to rest and be defensive, he knows when to press an attack. Novice swordsdwarfs would over-extend themselves, would fatigue themselves quickly, etc.

Realistically, there should be a comprehensive strength-to-weight ratio for wielded items. Perhaps there is? Or likely if not, i'm sure there will be. I'm not familiar with how strength is numerically rated, but let me toss around some numbers a bit:

A strength rating of 20 can wield a 2 lbs. blade proficiently for a long period of time. A strength rating of 30 can wield a 3 lbs. blade proficiently for a long time. Likewise a strength rating of 30 can wield a 2 lbs. deftly for a very long time. And a strength rating of 20 can wield a 3 lbs. blade effectively for a while.

A heavier weapon possesses more mass, and therefore requires more energy to move, and also requires more energy to stop it. This creates a much more powerful impact. And as such....

Back on topic: Blunt weapons (and piercing weapons as well) concentrate this impact into a much smaller, more effective point than other weapons do. They should have a benefit of concentrated impact, but still, this is not ignoring armor.

[marcusbjol]

The cyclops would have no problem wielding that platinum warhammer... if it was sized for a human.  If it was proportionally sized, the cyclops would have the same problem (actually more of one, up-scaling size is not energy efficient).

About attacking the rock slug with casseritite skin with that platinum hammer - If the slug moves slowly and ya can attack it with out real worry, and its skin is made of stone, I would say use the tools that currently exist to attack the stone - Yes, copper picks.

A pick properly used should penetrate most armor.  Yes, ya can use a big mace to do it, but wouldnt the dwarfy thing to do would be to drop the picks and pick up the war mattocks?

[Vester]

A pick properly used should penetrate most armor.  Yes, ya can use a big mace to do it, but wouldnt the dwarfy thing to do would be to drop the picks and pick up the war mattocks?

Weeeelll, since proper war hammers had pick-heads, that seems appropriate.

[marcusbjol]

See the problem we are running into here is how the various weapons react to the various armors.  The best RPG for this I have ever seen was chartmaster... errr Rolemaster.  Combat was resolved with a d100+<characters offence bonuse>-<targets defence bonus>  and that number was cross referenced with the armor (20 different types of armor (4 types of cloth, 4 light leathers, 4 heavy leather, 4 mail, 4 plate)) and referering to a different chart for each weapon.  Each weapon had its own page/chart (short sword, longsword, dagger).  Arms Law was one of the core books that just had weapon tables in it.