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[Karkov]

I was curious about that one.  I wonder what the jury was polling at, because that case seems pretty closed book.

[nenjin]

The usual. We're indoctrinated to defer to police use of force as reasonable and justifable under the circumstances. Fuck, you can't even convict a cop for shooting a child with a toy gun.

It's no wonder cops don't give any fucks about the fatalities they cause. Personally, I'd rather a bad guy got away because a cop was exercising caution in blowing someone away, than them executing every motherfucker that crosses them just to be on the safe side.

[Karkov]

Well if someone doesn't actually press that as a homicide case then something is fundamentally wrong with the Justice system in New York.  The autopsy reported it a homicide, choke-holds are actually against the departments' list of approved take-down methods, and we actually have video of it happening.  The cop who initiated the choke-hold at the very least could be tried for homicide, especially after they had him down on the ground.

Not sure how 12 people saw that as unable to be tried.

[nenjin]

Fear for their safety once the trial over? I'd that but right now it almost feels true. Not even from the police necessarily. You get on the news over something important, regardless of how it shakes out, you're probably getting death threats.

When officers say they acted in good faith, we tend to accept that, despite all evidence to the contrary. It's there in precedence and in the culture that grew around law enforcement after 9/11. The public generally doesn't want to criticize our "heroes" or hold them to the standard of justice we have for everyday citizens. I firmly believe you have to hold police to a higher standard of behavior if you want a good police force. And you'd think the millions and millions of dollars paid out in civil lawsuits would argue for enforcing that higher standard. But the opposite is true instead.

[Orange Wizard]

The usual. We're indoctrinated to defer to police use of force as reasonable and justifable under the circumstances. Fuck, you can't even convict a cop for shooting a child with a toy gun.

It's no wonder cops don't give any fucks about the fatalities they cause. Personally, I'd rather a bad guy got away because a cop was exercising caution in blowing someone away, than them executing every motherfucker that crosses them just to be on the safe side.

... what?

[nenjin]

Who would you rather have.

A) A cop who puts everyone's else's safety first (including a suspect who is not proven guilty in a court of law)

or

B) A cop who puts their own safety first (including a suspect who is not proven guilty in a court of law)

A is a Guardian. B is a Soldier, in my mind. And I don't want soldiers policing the streets.

[Helgoland]

I think it's wrong to phrase it in such a binary way; but a cop should have a much lower ratio of priority of own safety to priority of others' safety, yes.

[nenjin]

I think there's a pretty stark difference between a suspect with a weapon in their hand, and pretty much all other suspects. What continuely shocks me and pisses me off is how many people die to the police that are unarmed and/or handcuffed.

In my life, in one instance, I've had about 15 or so cops all pointing weapons at me at the same time. This was back in the 90s, when you didn't die immediately in situations like that. And what I remember most about that moment was watching the muzzles of their guns drifting and shaking as these guys were pumped with adrenaline, expecting a shootout and getting 4 teenagers in a gas station parking lot, legally exercising their right to shoot a car they owned with guns. I remember thinking "Holy fuck, if we do just one thing wrong, these guys will fucking waste us." Turns out someone did do something wrong, and no one got shot, but still. I didn't see cops as these cool, controlled operators in command of the situation. I saw a lot of middle-aged white guys in the dead of night, very scared or totally excited or both. If that situation played out today, there's an excellent chance someone would have died that night.

So my general take on cop-related homicides of the last decade plus is this: cops are scared. Really, really scared. 9/11 fucked everyone up, and suddenly every cop thinks and trains like a soldier now. It's puerile to say it, but cops act are and equipped like they'll be fighting Muslim Extremists in the streets any day. For the last fucking 13 years.

Add to that a lot of roadside shootings during garden variety traffic stops, and now survivalist nuts fulfilling law enforcement's worst nightmares/fantasies, and cops are basically expecting an armed conflict at every interaction and stop until it's been proven not to be the case. And that's just your average cops. Never mind the truly bad apples, the violent psychopaths with a badge, the racists, the poor hires and underqualified rookies. And then there's the hero complex that gets dump on top of all that, because of the constant media and political treatment of law enforcement and "civil service" since 9/11.

And now here I am, violating what I'd just said a couple pages ago about restraining my urge to jump into internet debates. >< It's a long path, dat e-lightenment.

[Frumple]

And I don't want soldiers policing the streets.

Haha, man, no, you'd probably rather a US solider policing the streets than a US cop right now. They've got stricter rules on use of force and stronger accountability, iirc. Generally better training, too! Hearing actual soldiers and recent vets speaking out in disbelief at police action has been one of the most morbidly hilarious depressing hilaripressing parts of the last bit of time.

And nah, we've seen the pics and side-by-sides of actual Iraq et al occupation troops and our police force. The soldiers wish they were equipped like our LEOs. Damn sure don't wish they were acting like them, though. Shit our cops are pulling would have just made the occupation deadlier.

[Wolfkit]

I think there's a pretty stark difference between a suspect with a weapon in their hand, and pretty much all other suspects. What continuely shocks me and pisses me off is how many people die to the police that are unarmed and/or handcuffed.

In my life, in one instance, I've had about 15 or so cops all pointing weapons at me at the same time. This was back in the 90s, when you didn't die immediately in situations like that. And what I remember most about that moment was watching the muzzles of their guns drifting and shaking as these guys were pumped with adrenaline, excepting a shoot out and getting 4 teenagers in a gas station parking lot legally exercising their right to shoot a car they owned with guns. I remember thinking "Holy fuck, if we do just one thing wrong, these guys will fucking waste us." Turns out someone did do something wrong, and no one got shot, but still. I didn't see cops as these cool, controlled operators in command of the situation. I saw a lot of middle-aged white guys in the dead of night, very scared or totally excited or both.

So my general take on cop-related homicides of the last decade plus is this: cops are scared. Really, really scared. 9/11 fucked everyone up, and suddenly every cop thinks and trains like a soldier now. It's puerile to say it, but cops act are and equipped like they'll be fighting Muslim Extremists in the streets any day. For the last fucking 13 years.

Add to that a lot of road side shootings during garden variety traffic stops, and now survivalist nuts fulfilling law enforcement's worst nightmares/fantasies, and cops are basically expecting an armed conflict at every interaction and stop until it's been proven not to be the case. And that's just your average cops. Never mind the truly bad apples, the violent psychopaths with a badge, the racists, the poor hires and underqualified rookies. And then there's the hero complex that gets dump on top of all that, because of the constant media and political treatment of law enforcement and "civil service" since 9/11.

And now here I am, violating what I'd just said a couple pages ago about restraining my urge to jump into internet debates. >< It's a long path, dat e-lightenment.

Wait. You were doing what? Why?

Also, that must have been an interesting conversation explaining that to the cops.

[nenjin]

We liked to destroy stuff as teenagers. Like, destroy big stuff, spectacularly, like cars. With fire. And high speed impacts. Or with whatever was handy. You can have a lot of fun for a weekend for less than $100 if you're a mechanic and someone is legally able to sign a title.

So a friend asked an owner of a gas station, outside city limits, if we could pump a Ford Escort we'd bought full of about 1000 rounds of ammunition next to the building. They knew each other and he said it was cool. So, we did just that. Pistols and shotguns, rifles. We had a merry time, responsibly. I got to shoot a lot of guns I'd never normally ever had the opportunity to outside of a gun range. Meanwhile, people are pulling in off the interstate to get gas and seeing all this go down, about 20 or 30 feet away, and after about....45 minutes or so, a big 'ol line of 10 or so cop cars came down the interstate and interrupted our fun. I'd seen them coming because I was on lookout duty, so we unloaded all the guns, laid them out on the tailgate of a station wagon, and met the cops, who pulled up full on Hollywood-style assault, fishtailing in sideways, car doors for cover. 15 or so cops screaming conflicting commands ("Get down", "Put your hands up", "Turn around", "Don't move".) And all the guns pointed at us.

They took my information but they basically didn't ask me anything as I was the youngest there, and once they found out it was with the owner's permission and we weren't violating any gun laws (other than the sawed off shotguns we stashed before they arrived....), they simply told us "It was probably time to go home." I think I was 15 at the time.

I can't even imagine what that scene would look like today. This was before Columbine even.

[KingofstarrySkies]

...That's kind of hilarious. At least the cops were polite about it, it sounds like.

[Orange Wizard]

Reason number #3967 why I'm glad I don't live in the 'States, apparently.

[nenjin]

...That's kind of hilarious. At least the cops were polite about it, it sounds like.

Yeah. That's the kind of restraint I'd like out of my cops.

[TamerVirus]

Nowadays that would result in the headline 'Terrorist cell foiled in shootout'