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[SalmonGod]

I can understand hatedoms in some cases.  Investing so much in hatred of something just because you don't like it is pretty stupid.  But there are a couple games that I don't think are necessarily horrible games, but represent or influence aspects of the industry that inspire that level of hatred in me.  They're a fucking big and ever-lasting thorn in the side of my favorite hobby.

For example, FF7.  I don't think it's the worst game ever.  I didn't really like it, but I don't exactly hate the game itself.  What I hate is the turning point that it was in the franchise away from all the things I liked about previous FF games, and how much cash milking attention it's received, despite being in my opinion the worst game the franchise has produced.  It's so incredibly frustrating to me.  To the point that I have many times put unreasonable amounts of effort into writing about that frustration.

[EnigmaticHat]

I guess from the perspective of someone who eventually wants to make either a popular video game or work of written fiction, and would probably do that alone (not as something I was paid to do, I just want to make something), the idea that someone would dedicate their time to ripping my work apart beyond a simple bad review or criticism is... not happy.  I guess you need to ignore crap like that on the internet, but just because the internet can be a cesspit of hate doesn't mean that it SHOULD be that, or that its acceptable to be insulting in an unjustified manner.

If it stays contained I guess its equivalent to badmouthing someone behind their back, kind of a crummy thing to do but not actively malicious.  As long as it stays contained.

[misko27]

The thing about these sort of things is they need a place to rant. Otherwise, it builds up like oil in a pore, eventually exploding in nastiness. Of course, losing the metaphor, it also needs to be marginalized, left to rant by themselves, allowed to speak with no one to listen.

[Vector]

For example, FF7.  I don't think it's the worst game ever.  I didn't really like it, but I don't exactly hate the game itself.  What I hate is the turning point that it was in the franchise away from all the things I liked about previous FF games, and how much cash milking attention it's received, despite being in my opinion the worst game the franchise has produced.  It's so incredibly frustrating to me.  To the point that I have many times put unreasonable amounts of effort into writing about that frustration.

Hmm... how would you feel about it if it weren't part of the FF series?  And how do you feel about FFIX?

[Neonivek]

FF7 is to me the game that started the current Final Fantasy trend (with 6 and back being the Classic Final Fantasies).

Yet honestly FF7 kept rather close to the original feel and essence of the final fantasy series. It is closer to a classic final fantasy then even 9 in my opinion (and it was made to be that).

Yet to me the real turning point was FF10 (FF9 gets out of that only because it was meant to be somewhat of an homage to classic final fantasies... even if it did vanguard the anime tropes).

To me what is sort of hurting RPGs is simple... Anime. RPGs are now trying to imitate Animes now because they can. The barriers the RPG medium had to perfectly imitating anime actually helped it.

The only RPG to me that can get away with being stereotypical anime is the Tales series and even then they sometimes flub it up.

I guess from the perspective of someone who eventually wants to make either a popular video game or work of written fiction, and would probably do that alone (not as something I was paid to do, I just want to make something), the idea that someone would dedicate their time to ripping my work apart beyond a simple bad review or criticism is... not happy.

I read a VERY extensive review of Other M (basically the Metroid game that is just outright terrible in the story department). I actually liked that somewhere there was a review that gave every single solitary reason why that game was so bad because it really deserved it in my mind.

[SalmonGod]

For example, FF7.  I don't think it's the worst game ever.  I didn't really like it, but I don't exactly hate the game itself.  What I hate is the turning point that it was in the franchise away from all the things I liked about previous FF games, and how much cash milking attention it's received, despite being in my opinion the worst game the franchise has produced.  It's so incredibly frustrating to me.  To the point that I have many times put unreasonable amounts of effort into writing about that frustration.

Hmm... how would you feel about it if it weren't part of the FF series?  And how do you feel about FFIX?

If it weren't part of the FF series... then I would probably hold some of the same feelings towards FF8 as it would take replacement as marking the turning point in the series.  The rest would depend on if it held the same fandom and received the same follow-up attention as FF7.  Even if it did, I probably wouldn't feel as negative towards it as I do towards FF7, because I enjoyed more things about it and would be more sympathetic to the fandom.

I enjoyed 8, 9, and 10... I think 10 the most of the three.  I just didn't enjoy any of them half as much as I enjoyed 4 or 6, or most of the stuff Square put out on the SNES for that matter.  And I haven't played any past 10. 

With 7, it couldn't even hold my interest long enough to complete the first disc, even when it was new and I went into it hyped and had no reason to resent it yet.  I've since tried several times to push myself through it, and have never made it past the beginning of the last disc.  I understand many will disagree with me, but in my opinion:  the pacing is horrible, the setting has zero cohesion or originality, the combat/character building is overly simplified and unsatisfying, and the personality of the characters is incredibly shallow.

But if it weren't the final fantasy game that it is, timed as it is within the franchise and with the massive fandom, spin-offs, and sequels, then it would just be a below average game to me and nothing more.

[Vector]

Hmmm... that makes sense.  I liked the lack of cohesion in FFVII's setting, the random references to Norse mythology and all that, just for kicks (you may note that these is a theme with me.  See: Toriyama obsession); and the entire point of Cloud is that he's supposed to be flat.  They took the standard JRPG convention of the silent protagonist without a personality and deconstructed it (no excuse for side characters, though).  I also liked the Turks as a funky miniboss squad, and the environmentalist theme.

I actually think that most of what I like is the fandom, which has rather a lot of high-quality fanfiction.  It's a better world to write in than it is to play in.

Otherwise, I agree with you, though I disliked the grindiness of the SNES FF's and found it prohibitive.  My sweet spot is FFVIII and FFIX, with a particular enjoyment of FFVI's "directing the battle" portions and storytelling.

[Pnx]

Yes, a lot of the FF games were very grindy. The newer games tend to be even worse in this regard.

[SalmonGod]

I like the Norse mythology references, too, but they've always been there    I did like the Turks and the environmentalist theme, also.  And I will admit that it has one of the best video game soundtracks ever.

It just bothered me that there's a cyberpunk dystopia over here/victorian village over there/ninja clan in the mountains up there/giant casino-disneyland thing down there/etc.  All flat stereotypes with not a single creatively thing interesting about them.  And even though it's obvious that there's plenty of travel taking place in the world (except maybe in/out of Midgar?) there's otherwise zero reason to believe that these places have any contact with one another.

I also didn't feel like the Cloud type of character was much of a jrpg standard convention until after FF7 hit major popularity.

[Pnx]

It just bothered me that there's a cyberpunk dystopia over here/victorian village over there/ninja clan in the mountains up there/giant casino-disneyland thing down there/etc.  All flat stereotypes with not a single creatively thing interesting about them.  And even though it's obvious that there's plenty of travel taking place in the world (except maybe in/out of Midgar?) there's otherwise zero reason to believe that these places have any contact with one another.

I think growing up this sort of thing was what most appealed to me about the game, exploring the crazy and unexpected world.

[Vector]

Blorgh, FFXII was awful.  The problem is that we can have lots of encounters so long as they're each a challenge that has to be approached tactically, but the difficulty curve on traditional JRPGs with the random encounters just sucked.


That's a good point, they really didn't seem to be trading with each other or anything like that.

As for the Cloud type of character, there's Chrono, Mario, Link, Snake, Samus, the hero of Dragon Quest (THE JRPG in Japan)... my understanding is that it was a truly bog-standard JRPG convention at the time.  The angsty blandness and so on, no, I'm pretty sure that that came from Cloud; but the "blank slate" idea was very common.

Won't say anything about the other characterization.  I enjoyed Vincent, but in general didn't like too many of the other characters.  Didn't run around collecting powers or materia either, really... I think that FFVII is sort of an okay game if you're just playing it, but if you're trying to be at all completionist then it's awful.

I also wish that JRPGs in general had difficulty levels.  As-is it seems that most of the game is really easy, and then they have BONUS CHALLENGE MISSIONS that are hard to the point of being pointless.

[MaximumZero]

Having gone back and played FF7 (screw roman numerals,) as an adult with a little bit of literary knowledge, the biggest problem was the dialogue. Everyone...speaks...like...Shatner! The ellipsis is cool, but we need to stop abusing it.

[Vector]

Good point.  Kind of like the throat-clicking thing in Dragonball, which sounds fucking ridiculous in retrospect.

[Xantalos]

Having gone back and played FF7 (screw roman numerals,) as an adult with a little bit of literary knowledge, the biggest problem was the dialogue. Everyone...speaks...like...Shatner! The ellipsis is cool, but we need to stop abusing it.

Heresy! Only Shatner has authorization to speak Shatnerese.

[Scoops Novel]

Having gone back and played FF7 (screw roman numerals,) as an adult with a little bit of literary knowledge, the biggest problem was the dialogue. Everyone...speaks...like...Shatner! The ellipsis is cool, but we need to stop abusing it.

crys into your arms