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[Descan]

Well... So all you're paying for it with is your time.

[MaximumZero]

Well... So all you're paying for it with is your time.

That, and beating my head against the table because of the triteness of the class. This is a class that should not be taught in college. Every public school curriculum has all of these subjects at the grade school/middle school levels.

[Loud Whispers]

It was unlikely that we'd see a conviction in any case, given that the jury members were all white and hispanic, in a racially-charged case. Maybe I'm just too cynical, but I never saw much hope of Zimmerman going down. This is just too reminiscent of last-century cases for me to not expect the worst.

Funny, there are people saying a conviction is inevitable for the exact same reason. The defense and the prosecution both had to agree on the jury picked, so it's going to be down to the facts. For the best.

[nenjin]

In the end I'll think he'll be acquitted. They obviously fought, and Zimmermann is trying to claim Martin went for his gun. It's going to be impossible to ascertain from the evidence who was the bigger threat to whom at the time (there was like 1 latent print on Zimmermann's gun, just enough for reasonable doubt for both sides.) I think even though it's a fight Zimmermann pretty much instigated, he's going to get the benefit of the doubt on self-defense. At worst it'll be a crime of passion and I think he'd get manslaughter. I just don't see an American jury convicting a guy of murder for basically living out every gun owner's worst case scenario/fantasy. The fact they had a physical altercation before he drew and fired his gun is what will eventually rule out a murder verdict. We'll never really know who chose to walk to whom and start laying their hands on them.

Ultimately though, this is why concealed weapon laws make me nervous. You get people who decide to act rashly, although still legally, and they provoke trouble. Then when trouble finds them, they pull their gun. There's no index or test you can make people take to establish whether they're dicks, or secretly waiting for the day they get to shoot someone. Guns empower people, both for the ability to defend themselves against unwanted threats and to respond with deadly force to situations they helped create.

I can't help but think about South Park for some reason. You can think of "It's comin' right for us!" as it applies to humans as well, and all the ways that can be abused.

[alway]

It was unlikely that we'd see a conviction in any case, given that the jury members were all white and hispanic, in a racially-charged case. Maybe I'm just too cynical, but I never saw much hope of Zimmerman going down. This is just too reminiscent of last-century cases for me to not expect the worst.

Funny, there are people saying a conviction is inevitable for the exact same reason. The defense and the prosecution both had to agree on the jury picked, so it's going to be down to the facts. For the best.

Zimmerman isn't going to be convicted. Any ambiguity in the chain of events is pretty much covered by the area's "Stand Your Ground" laws. And that, more than anything, is what this case is about.

Morally, he is quite clearly guilty: he, a complete stranger, follows a kid walking down the sidewalk. He told dispatchers specifically what he was doing, and they told him specifically to stay in his car and not confront the kid. He gets out of his car, and confronts the kid.
Quite naturally, a fight ensues; who threw the first punch is irrelevant, as Zimmerman is quite clearly in the wrong at this point. By that I mean this: if you're a kid, and some stranger is stalking you in a car at night, he gets out, and comes up to you, the correct response is either: GTFO or if that's not possible, incapacitate then GTFO. Zimmerman had a car, and was confrontational, making the first option less likely. And if his gun was visible, it rules it out immediate flight entirely.

Under the Stand Your Ground law though? The prosecutor won't be able to make anything stick. Even with all evidence stating that Zimmerman followed the kid, provoked a fight, and even if it showed he started the fight, that's all irrelevant. The only justification he needed was "feeling his life was in danger." The prosecution literally needs to prove that Zimmerman did not feel his life was in danger. That's the standard of evidence they need to meet under Stand Your Ground laws. Much more than race, this case is about those laws and the terrible effect they have: that they allow people to quite literally get away with murder so long as they start a fight and the other person actually fights back.

And if we look at it from the other angle, Trayvon was also quite clearly in the right. In such a situation, any kid should feel their life in in danger, because the whole 'stranger danger' thing is pretty much the second thing kids are taught, just after "Don't touch the stovetop." Based on the same and similar laws to the Stand Your Ground laws, Trayvon was legally in the right even if he did swing first. He was authorized to use any means, up to and including lethal, to defend his life. And shit like this is the result: someone died because Stand Your Ground laws only take situations and escalate them to the point where someone will end up dead.

[MaximumZero]

Second degree murder should be a real possibility, here. He's the instigator, as the dispatch recording shows, and he clearly had bad intentions before being seriously threatened.

[nenjin]

The defense has established a pattern of home break-ins in the area prior to their encounter. The prosecution has also introduced evidence of Zimmermann being a law enforcement hopeful and not making the cut. So the argument cuts both ways, and categorically defining his intent as malicious will be hard.

I think proving 2nd degree murder will be hard at best too. There's too many extenuating circumstances for it to be cut and dry, not the least of which is basically the content of what happened from when Zimmermann left his car to another witness getting a clear picture of the scene.

[SalmonGod]

Just learned that a mining company named Gogebic Taconite has secured rights to dig the largest open pit iron mine in the world in northern Wisconsin.  I'm learning about this because claims are circulating right now (with pictures) that the company has hired mercenaries to patrol the grounds, outfitted like soldiers on a battlefield.

[Loud Whispers]

Morally, he is quite clearly guilty: he, a complete stranger, follows a kid walking down the sidewalk.

Not really no. Trayvon was found to have women's jewelry on him that was not George's as well as a screwdriver, which is pretty supportive of the validity of Zimmerman's suspicions. Trayvon was allegedly walking around in the rain eyeing people's houses. If George's account is true, he intended to ask Trayvon what he was doing. I think it's more to do with him wanting to be like his uncle.

He told dispatchers specifically what he was doing, and they told him specifically to stay in his car and not confront the kid. He gets out of his car, and confronts the kid.
Quite naturally, a fight ensues; who threw the first punch is irrelevant, as Zimmerman is quite clearly in the wrong at this point. By that I mean this: if you're a kid, and some stranger is stalking you in a car at night, he gets out, and comes up to you, the correct response is either: GTFO or if that's not possible, incapacitate then GTFO. Zimmerman had a car, and was confrontational, making the first option less likely. And if his gun was visible, it rules it out immediate flight entirely.

And here's where it gets morally translucent. You do have a right to walk wherever you like, and violence is a last resort. Jeantel's testimony of the phone call with Trayvon has her saying he [Trayvon] should start the fight with, to paraphrase, that creepy-ass cracker-rapist. It needn't have escalated at all.
However, if Trayvon believed his life in danger, then whether or not he delivered the first blow would not be relevant. Yet if George's account is true, and it does seem so judging by his wounds on the front and back of his head, Trayvon did not punch him once, or when he knocked him down he didn't flee. He began to bash his head into the concrete, at which point George, fearing for his life shot Trayvon once in the chest. If again, George's account is true, this is when Trayvon says 'ok you got me,' and George flees, instead of shooting or beating Trayvon up. The coroner confirmed that Trayvon was alive for up to 10 minutes after the gunshot wound, meaning George did not attempt to ensure Trayvon's death.

Without anyone's accounts being held as true, what we have is this:

• Trayvon Martin had marijuana in his system alongside jewelry, tools and conveniences.
• George Zimmerman called dispatches, shot Trayvon Martin once fatally in the heart with a legally carried gun and went to see medics for his wounds.

The prosecution literally needs to prove that Zimmerman did not feel his life was in danger. That's the standard of evidence they need to meet under Stand Your Ground laws. Much more than race, this case is about those laws and the terrible effect they have: that they allow people to quite literally get away with murder so long as they start a fight and the other person actually fights back.

The defense need to prove several things for George to be deemed innocent:

• That George used necessary force.
• That George believed his life was in danger.
• That George disengaged when Trayvon was no longer a threat.
• That George did not intend to kill Trayvon in advance.

This could have been an incredibly difficult thing for the defense to do had the prosecution not done the defense's job for them. You should have seen the look on West and O'Mara's face when the star witnesses started talking.

The evidence does support George's case. I wonder if this would be different were there a better prosecution, but I also wonder how much of the bias in this case is really just down to major news corps like MSNBC race baiting America for ratings or CNN's deliberate doctoring of the evidence at hand.

[MagmaMcFry]

Just learned that a mining company named Gogebic Taconite has secured rights to dig the largest open pit iron mine in the world in northern Wisconsin.  I'm learning about this because claims are circulating right now (with pictures) that the company has hired mercenaries to patrol the grounds, outfitted like soldiers on a battlefield.

Conspiracies ho!

[Xantalos]

Bamboo. I just spent upwards of 5 hours pulling it out of a garden.
FUCK
YOUR
ROOTS

[Loud Whispers]

Bamboo. I just spent upwards of 5 hours pulling it out of a garden.
FUCK
YOUR
ROOTS

Bamboo? Where exactly is your non-euclidean habitat located? I remember summers poking fields of leaves to make them close. It was really more fun than it should have been.

[Xantalos]

Bamboo. I just spent upwards of 5 hours pulling it out of a garden.
FUCK
YOUR
ROOTS

Bamboo? Where exactly is your non-euclidean habitat located? I remember summers poking fields of leaves to make them close. It was really more fun than it should have been.

On the Ring of Fire.

[Tellemurius]

Bamboo. I just spent upwards of 5 hours pulling it out of a garden.
FUCK
YOUR
ROOTS

Bamboo? Where exactly is your non-euclidean habitat located? I remember summers poking fields of leaves to make them close. It was really more fun than it should have been.

On the Ring of Fire.

Greenland

[Mlamlah]

It currently fills me with irrational rage that after dealing with my insomnia issues, newly emerged anxiety issues are keeping me from rest i desperately  need.