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[thijser]

As it is now any trap will magically reload if it is not blocked this isn't very logic.

For this to work we need to introduce a new unit: powerframes. one powerstep is effecifly  one unit of power suplied over a time of one step.

My idea would be that instead of a trap beeing able to get blocked it would require a certain amout of power. The default system would be that this power is supplied by springs. These springs must first recieve a certain amout of power before they can activate a trap. This can be done by dwarfs with the set trap labor. These springs would be a part of the trap and only requare one additional mechanisme. The amout of power is relative to the quility of the mechanisme(and perhaps the elasticity of the material). Preparing a spring would requare about 2000 powersteps (one dwarf makes about 10 power so that makes 200 steps which is the time needed to walk 20 tiles). We could also add the haning stone. A hanging stone is conected to a trap by a connexion piece. These connection stones require large shafts in which a stone hangs by a rope each time the trap is triggered this stone falls one Z-level once the stone reaches the botton of the shaft it will cease to work. Simmulair to the spring this trap can also be reset by dwarfs. The amout of damage traps linked to a hanging stone do is relative towards the weight of the stone. Last but not least there could be a dirrect power trap. These are effectifly huge amout of power dirrectly channeled into a trap. the advantage is no reset time the trap keeps hitting till whatever it's hitting is death. However these things would requare around 2000 power to operate.

In short
spring:
advantage easy to make
disadvantage: 1 hit only
materials: 1 mechanisme
damage: relative to mechanisme (+perhaps elasticity of material)

hanging stone:
advantage: multiple hits
disadvantage: require a shaft.
damage: relative to weight of the stone

dirrect power:
advantage no reload, constand hitting
disadvantage: needs huge amout of power.
materials: none/huge amouts of power+connection

It would also make this better if we had extra ways of generating power:
1
treadmill: effecifly a mill that an animal or dwarf walks on in order to generate power. The power output is relative to the strengt of the annimal/dwarf that pushes the mill.
requires: 1 mechanisme+2 woodes blocks
advantages:power suply widely avaible and easy to set up can be used both above and under ground.
disadvantages: dwarven powerd is unriable and needs a limit supply matieral: annimals

steam engine:A machine that uses coal and a water supply to produce vast amouts of power, can be linked dirrectly to a water supply or relly on supplies from dwarfes. Each unit of coal would run the engine for a certain amout of time (some 500 steps?)
requires: 2 mechanismes 4 bars of metal and 2 pipes.
advantages: produces a vast amout of power (500?)
disadvantages: needs constand care from your dwarfs and uses resources to produce power.

[fanatic]

Cool idea.  It would make the overpowered "death alleys" a "little" more challenging to setup.

If i may amend this :

1) similar approach would make sense for bridges imho.
2) we would need additional ways to create power for the grid : using dwarves, and/or work animals.

[thijser]

I will keep adding to this idea and indead we need to convert power from annimals aswell.

[Fourdots]

Somewhat contained in improved mechanics, currently #6 in eternal suggestion voting. Making traps require power, anyways.

Also, >20 water wheels to operate a single spike trap (which is, in essence, what your "direct power" trap is)? And the same to prepare a spring, when it takes only 20 power (admittedly, over 10 frames, so 200 "power-steps") to raise an arbitrary liquid one level?

And please, use spellcheck.

[thijser]

Well the trick would be that these spike traps would be less powerfull (the way they are now you can just conect a fast repear to the spike trap this way the need power.) Part of the trick with these traps would of course be that you have to design a system by which you can move the power over your trap system in order to make shure those 2000 power are used at the right time. Also the trick with the constanly powered traps would be that the might strike as much as 10 times while an enemy is on their tile. (Perhaps they can be toned down a bit but these traps would be very powerfull once you can actually get them).

[fanatic]

I will keep adding to this idea and indead we need to convert power from annimals aswell.

treadmill yeah that is what i was looking for.

im against the steam engine as a construction though.we're not in arcanum here 

[thijser]

Well the steam engine would be a more or less endgame/large fortress object as it would requare serveral dwarfs to keep it running.
I'm currently a bit disapoined by the amout of normal stuff you can do within one fortress (no really huge project unless you challange yourself but these are not in game funcional buildings)

on a side note about that spelling checker how do I change the firefox spelling language checker

[ed boy]

To activate, Tools>options>advanced
To change the language, Tools>options>content

[Pilsu]

How do you turn a waterwheel supplied force into a trap that constantly springs and retracts at lightning speed?

All of this has been talked about before and better.

[fanatic]

How do you turn a waterwheel supplied force into a trap that constantly springs and retracts at lightning speed?

Just like with the pumps : you build it next to a gear assembly/axle/other powered component. and the weapon trap will behave as if it was jammed when it is out of power. cage traps dont really need this since they require a manual reload anyway

[Pilsu]

I was thinking more on the lines of the mechanics of it. Logically the thing would be unable to spring if the wheels are constantly applying the force to retract it. In fact, they'd break real fast in a setup like that. I think power should only be applied to retract the spikes. Animal power from above or below makes more sense as it's directly controlled.

I'm always left wondering why people assume that waterwheels have the speed and torque to move things lightning fast to begin with. Just because the game only has torque doesn't mean velocity shouldn't matter. Pumps should be made a lot slower.

[Wyrm]

I was thinking more on the lines of the mechanics of it. Logically the thing would be unable to spring if the wheels are constantly applying the force to retract it. In fact, they'd break real fast in a setup like that.

Baloney. A cam and clutch system can easily disengage the axle and allow the spike to spring out on the trap stroke, and then engage the power axle for the return stroke, automatically. It's been used in mechanical toys since well before the industrial revolution, and can be easily scaled up.

I'm always left wondering why people assume that waterwheels have the speed and torque to move things lightning fast to begin with.

The fact that a 10 m³/s stream with a head of 5 m has a theoretical power of over four hundred kilowatts, and can generate 1,060 N·m of torque reciprocating ~60 times a second? The power of even modest streams is quite respectable.

There's also the not insignificant fact that time passes quickly in DF. There is a lot of time to accumulate the required energy for spikes to stab when a gabbo remains over them for minutes in real time.

Just because the game only has torque doesn't mean velocity shouldn't matter. Pumps should be made a lot slower.

Baseless assertion until we establish how much power those waterwheels are really cranking out.

[Pilsu]

Baloney. A cam and clutch system can easily disengage the axle and allow the spike to spring out on the trap stroke, and then engage the power axle for the return stroke, automatically. It's been used in mechanical toys since well before the industrial revolution, and can be easily scaled up.

Fair enough. Now, did those toys constantly operate or was there an actual trigger that sprang it, followed by automatic, timed reload? Also, can you actually source the claim that it'd be period tech?

Any such mechanisms should be subject to failure based on engineering skill and parts.

The fact that a 10 m³/s stream with a head of 5 m has a theoretical power of over four hundred kilowatts, and can generate 1,060 N·m of torque reciprocating ~60 times a second? The power of even modest streams is quite respectable.

1 2
Yeah, you can power things with that. It ain't gonna be lightning fast though. Yeah, they're on the slow side as examples but speed is still an issue.

Stream speed being relevant might help fix the perpetual motion issue.

There's also the not insignificant fact that time passes quickly in DF. There is a lot of time to accumulate the required energy for spikes to stab when a gabbo remains over them for minutes in real time.

If we start actually having this conversation, things get really stupid, really fast. Let's not pretend the time scale is meaningful in any way.

Baseless assertion until we establish how much power those waterwheels are really cranking out.

It's an Archimedes' screw. Look at the rate it pumps with and then look at the speed the waterwheels of yore spin at. Does that look accurate to you? Those pumping speeds are industrial, not ones evocative of a screw moving water through it powered by hand.

[Wyrm]

Fair enough. Now, did those toys constantly operate or was there an actual trigger that sprang it, followed by automatic, timed reload? Also, can you actually source the claim that it'd be period tech?

Al-Jazari describes complex, programmable automata in his Book of Knowledge of Ingenious Mechanical Devices, which appeared in 1206. A grooved plate and spring-loaded stylus provides the flip-flop logic (remembering whether the trap is on the thrust stroke or the return stroke), and clutches and cams engage and disengage the turning power. Ordinary trigger mechanisms provide the ability to respond to the lucky gabbo.

Any such mechanisms should be subject to failure based on engineering skill and parts.

Of course, but we don't have that in DF now in any form.

1 2
Yeah, you can power things with that. It ain't gonna be lightning fast though. Yeah, they're on the slow side as examples but speed is still an issue.

You do know you can sacrifice torque for rotation speed, do you not, using these amazing modern device called a "gear"?

Stream speed being relevant might help fix the perpetual motion issue.

Yes, but that's going to involve an overhaul of the entire physics scheme, so that's not happening anytime soon.

If we start actually having this conversation, things get really stupid, really fast. Let's not pretend the time scale is meaningful in any way.

Power is energy delivered per unit time. Time-scale is part of any argument over power, whether you like it or not.

It's an Archimedes' screw. Look at the rate it pumps with and then look at the speed the waterwheels of yore spin at. Does that look accurate to you? Those pumping speeds are industrial, not ones evocative of a screw moving water through it powered by hand.

You just said in your very last paragraph that time scale wasn't meaningful to the conversation, and now it is? Which is it, boy?

[Pilsu]

The scale is not accurate for making any kind of math out of but I don't think I'm out of line if I think pumping a wall of water that moves faster (or was it a bit slower, I forget) than running speed might be a bit too fast for an Archemedes' screw that can be powered by hand for such results. Just saying.

Eh, I just don't see those wheels providing enough torque that even several could muster this kind of pumping speed. Water in itself is not weightless, it's pretty heavy to move about and the parts you're working with are primitive. The pumps we have now put modern industrial pumps to shame.