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Author Topic: Adamantine colossus?  (Read 22448 times)

Schilcote

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Re: Adamantine colossus?
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2010, 02:01:23 pm »

Blunt damage is a matter of momentum, which adamantine just can't get. Hence the blade-arms.

But we're dealing with raw force here. If I were to cut off a human hand and toss it at something, it'd just bounce off because it has very little momentum. But if I punch that object, it will dent or break (or my hand will break, depending on the object). I'm imparting force directly using the fist as a conduit. An adamantine colossus would be doing the same thing, only with a larger surface area.

Anyway, things made from adamantine may be light, but adamantine's density isn't that low, is it?
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WHY DID YOU HAVE ME KICK THEM WTF I DID NOT WANT TO BE SHOT AT.
I dunno, you guys have survived Thomas the tank engine, golems, zombies, nuclear explosions, laser whales, and being on the same team as ragnarock.  I don't think something as tame as a world ending rain of lava will even slow you guys down.

SlipshodDorf

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Re: Adamantine colossus?
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2010, 02:05:01 pm »

Slade Colossus.
 :D
What? Not all megabeasts should be killable. There should be some things that should terrify even the largest and most powerful fortress.

I don't think it would be phyiscally possible for something made of slade to move, or even be on the surface considering that slade is 9.456 times as dense as platnium it would probably be a avatar to Armok himself if it existed and infact slade is probably so dense that if something were made out of it and tried walking on sand and dirt tiles it would probably fall through them for Armok's sake. Also on another note Mega-beasts should always be possible to beat.

I don't agree, I think megabeasts should just leave you the hell alone after a while. An adamantine collosus should be damned 'near' impossible to defeat by conventional means, and should get bored of tearing your fort up and wander off if you can't devise a method of killing it. I'm thinking more along the lines of a usage for siege weapons here then anything else for harder to kill creatures.
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Foehamster

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Re: Adamantine colossus?
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2010, 02:09:32 pm »

I think there should be a few monsters that must be encased in obsidian or sealed by a cave in WHICH DOESN'T KILL the creature.  If you mine it out, its out again.

Sometimes the best you can do is put a cap back on the can of Whoop-ass.  Besides, it might be fun to keep a Rancor in the basement.
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Ilmoran

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Re: Adamantine colossus?
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2010, 02:13:30 pm »

Check the wiki it says slade is that dense. I don't think you realize that slade is infact that dense. Also I do believe that colossi can occasionally get or spawn with a weapon, from my experience in adventure and fortress mode I've seen them carrying *LARGE* Bronze weapons.

My point is that the game doesn't use that information in the way you're talking about.  I'm fairly sure that the game doesn't check if a creature is strong enough to move itself, it is just assumed that they can.  Likewise, sand and dirt don't get displaced by any amount of weight in the game.  As I said, people have made workable creatures involving slade, so what you're saying is how you want the ingame physics to work, not how it actually does work.

Anyway, things made from adamantine may be light, but adamantine's density isn't that low, is it?

I can't find skin or bone raws on the wiki, but adamantine has a density of 200.  Featherwood has a density of 100.  Most other woods have a density of 700.  Iron has a density of 7850 (when solid) and slade has a density of 200,000.  So yeah, adamantine's density is pretty low.
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Hyndis

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Re: Adamantine colossus?
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2010, 03:49:28 pm »

I think there should be a few monsters that must be encased in obsidian or sealed by a cave in WHICH DOESN'T KILL the creature.  If you mine it out, its out again.

Sometimes the best you can do is put a cap back on the can of Whoop-ass.  Besides, it might be fun to keep a Rancor in the basement.

Unkillable, ancient evils are commonly buried away in myth and lore. They cannot be defeated but they can be imprisoned. Hopefully for all eternity. Hopefully no one stumbles upon them digging with a -copper pick-.

 ;D
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Nikov

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Re: Adamantine colossus?
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2010, 04:07:13 pm »

I've removed all megabeasts save dragons in my most recent build, and even so, all my dwarven fortresses are in ruins by the time I embark at 500 AD.
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I should probably have my head checked, because I find myself in complete agreement with Nikov.

Ilmoran

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Re: Adamantine colossus?
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2010, 04:27:54 pm »

Ok, at home now, so I can check the raws.

First, adamantine's density is that low.  Second, some things seem to have hilarious densities.

Looking through the material_template_default.txt (so these are the generic densities for materials):
Wood: 500
Skin: 1000
Fat: 900
Muscle: 1060
Sinew: 1000
Bone: 500
Cartilage: 500
Hair: 500
Feather: 500
Scale: 500
Nail: 500
Tooth: 500
Eye: 500 (ok, now things are definitely looking silly)
Nerve, Brain, Lung, Heart, Liver: 500
Blood, Pus, Ichor, Milk, Slime: 500

So, a lot of things have 500 slapped on as their solid_density, but adamantine is 200.
lol
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Hyndis

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Re: Adamantine colossus?
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2010, 04:48:58 pm »

Adamantine is supposed to be magically light. Its why its so valuable as armor and as slashing/piercing weapons. It would be foolish to use adamantine to make blunt weapons. You want heavy metals for that, preferably lead or platinum.

Its like making a sledgehammer out of styrofoam. Its not going to hurt anything.

You want the metal head of the sledgehammer to be as heavy as possible. Heavier it is the harder it hits.
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Schilcote

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Re: Adamantine colossus?
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2010, 04:58:47 pm »

Well, my point still stands that it's a fist we're talking about here. Not a hammer. With a hammer, you're definitely right because you're mostly just lifting it over your head and letting it's momentum crush skulls. With a fist, momentum isn't involved. Again, punching a wall with my hand does about the same amount of damage to the wall (we're talking about a wall made out of that white stuff that's supposed to be made out of rocks and then covered in paper) as throwing a steel ball at it; yet my hand is much lighter than the ball. This is because I'm imparting the majority of my force with the fist less than a second before the impact, and exerting a constant force to keep it in motion, but throwing a steel ball imparts ALL of the force almost a second before the impact so air friction has an opportunity to slow it down before it impacts. Case in point, boxing gloves. Even though technically there's still a hand inside, there's a lot of fluff in between (and the idea is that the fist never directly imparts force to the opponent's face). If I were to throw a boxing glove at the wall with the same force as the steel ball, it would simply bounce off. But if I were wearing the glove on my fist and punched the wall, it would still damage the wall.
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WHY DID YOU HAVE ME KICK THEM WTF I DID NOT WANT TO BE SHOT AT.
I dunno, you guys have survived Thomas the tank engine, golems, zombies, nuclear explosions, laser whales, and being on the same team as ragnarock.  I don't think something as tame as a world ending rain of lava will even slow you guys down.

Hyndis

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Re: Adamantine colossus?
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2010, 05:08:28 pm »

Well, my point still stands that it's a fist we're talking about here. Not a hammer. With a hammer, you're definitely right because you're mostly just lifting it over your head and letting it's momentum crush skulls. With a fist, momentum isn't involved. Again, punching a wall with my hand does about the same amount of damage to the wall (we're talking about a wall made out of that white stuff that's supposed to be made out of rocks and then covered in paper) as throwing a steel ball at it; yet my hand is much lighter than the ball. This is because I'm imparting the majority of my force with the fist less than a second before the impact, and exerting a constant force to keep it in motion, but throwing a steel ball imparts ALL of the force almost a second before the impact so air friction has an opportunity to slow it down before it impacts. Case in point, boxing gloves. Even though technically there's still a hand inside, there's a lot of fluff in between (and the idea is that the fist never directly imparts force to the opponent's face). If I were to throw a boxing glove at the wall with the same force as the steel ball, it would simply bounce off. But if I were wearing the glove on my fist and punched the wall, it would still damage the wall.

This is completely incorrect.

The reason why a boxing glove pads the impact is exactly the same reason why cars are designed to crush.

If you impart all of the force in one instant, even a tiny amount of momentum results in a gigantic amount of force. Its the change in velocity that is important. If you go to a stop instantly, slowing down from whatever speed you were at to a dead stop in as little time as possible you will be subjected to massive amounts of force.

If it takes longer to slow down the force will be far less.

With a fist, the bones of your knuckles are rigid enough that the fist stops almost instantly upon impact. Bone has very little give.

A boxing glove contacts the surface, and at the point of contact it begins transferring that energy. It takes longer for your fist to come to a complete stop because the glove is in the middle, and so while the same amount of force is transferred, it is transferred over a longer period of time and is thus mostly harmless.

If you are in a car and you floor it, you will feel pushed back in your seat. If you accelerate slowly you will feel much less force. The same is true for stopping. As they say, its not the fall that kills you, its the ground. In an impact the metal of the car will crush, much like a boxing glove, acting as a break so that your deceleration takes longer, so you are subjected to less force per unit of time.

Similarly, this is why guns are so dangerous. The recoil of a standard 9mm is very little. The impact of that same 9mm is also very small. But that small amount of force is concentrated into a tiny area, which is why it can pierce nearly anything. Your fists probably deliver far more energy than a 9mm bullet, but your fists do it over a much larger area. If you're holding a pointy object in your fist, like a screwdriver, then you do drastically more damage than with bare hands due to surface area.



/physics
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Adamantine colossus?
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2010, 05:18:07 pm »

What I want to know is where these colossi are coming from. Who built them? The gods? Some lost civilization? Are more being made?

If these are just some kind of "steampunk technology"? If so, then maybe there should be different varieties of them? Other than just material types. Like, some could have drill-arms, or run on tracks, or "breathe" live steam, or fling boulders, catapult-style.

The idea I've come up with is that they're from an alternate universe (from DF), where steam technology works, and that they're some kind of drone scout, or advance guard.
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Ilmoran

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Re: Adamantine colossus?
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2010, 05:37:06 pm »

Well, my point still stands that it's a fist we're talking about here. Not a hammer. With a hammer, you're definitely right because you're mostly just lifting it over your head and letting it's momentum crush skulls. With a fist, momentum isn't involved. Again, punching a wall with my hand does about the same amount of damage to the wall (we're talking about a wall made out of that white stuff that's supposed to be made out of rocks and then covered in paper) as throwing a steel ball at it; yet my hand is much lighter than the ball. This is because I'm imparting the majority of my force with the fist less than a second before the impact, and exerting a constant force to keep it in motion, but throwing a steel ball imparts ALL of the force almost a second before the impact so air friction has an opportunity to slow it down before it impacts. Case in point, boxing gloves. Even though technically there's still a hand inside, there's a lot of fluff in between (and the idea is that the fist never directly imparts force to the opponent's face). If I were to throw a boxing glove at the wall with the same force as the steel ball, it would simply bounce off. But if I were wearing the glove on my fist and punched the wall, it would still damage the wall.

Not sure why your comparing a punch and a thrown object and saying its the same as a punch compared to a hammer.  With a hammer, you aren't "lifting it over your head and letting it's momentum crush skulls".  You don't just lift a hammer, drop it, and let gravity do the work.  You swing it, in which case you're imparting force on it.  Using your drywall example, punching it and throwing your steel ball *might* do relatively the same amount of damage to the wall (although I think that's more because in both case, you're just going to plow through the wall, which can't deform enough from the absorbed force before it loses structural integrity to actually show a difference), but you can do even more damage swinging a hammer (again, assuming the wall can actually deform enough to have an apparent difference).

A counterpoint to your example is brass knuckles.  Denser than a fist by itself, and they let you do a more damage.

The one thing adamantine should have going for it, but I don't think it's modeled properly in weapons, is that it *doesn't* deform, which iirc means it is significantly more effective at transferring its force.  The problem is being able to impart that force in the first place, and given how light adamantine is, you'd basically need it moving extremely fast to have the same force as a heavier object.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 06:09:38 pm by Ilmoran »
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Adamantine colossus?
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2010, 06:08:20 pm »

Brass knuckles do a little more damage because of their hardness and weight, but their main function is actually to protect your knuckles from damage, when punching.

Closed-fist punching is a pretty dangerous thing, since you can easily dislocate a joint, damage your wrist, or break a bone. That's why Asian martial arts generally avoid that, employing instead the palm or side of the hand, in strikes, or fingers that have been repeatedly exercised to strengthen them, to claw at the eyes, or grip.

It is possible to strengthen your own knuckles, though, developing heavy callouses and more massive/denser knucklebone, but it's a lengthy and painful process, itself.
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Pilsu

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Re: Adamantine colossus?
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2010, 07:06:45 pm »

What? Not all megabeasts should be killable. There should be some things that should terrify even the largest and most powerful fortress.

Ooh, terrifying. Don't forget that a falling log floor would crush God himself in this game if he was caught under it. Ewok style.

Yeah, that should probably be fixed. :P
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Adamantine colossus?
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2010, 07:13:44 pm »

Fixed in a way that still crushed ewoks, preferrably...

And I'd prefer something that terrifies even really powerful Fortresses to be more subtle and insidious than a giant London-crushing cyberman.
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