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Author Topic: Cellular Automata  (Read 4759 times)

Oglokoog

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Re: Cellular Automata
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2010, 02:27:04 am »

I doubt that they are limited to 1 or 2 dimensions, either.

No, they aren't.  I've had to write proofs for an n-dimensional Game of Life-derivative before.

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So we got monsters above, monsters below, dwarves in the middle and a party in the dining hall. Sounds good to me.
If all else fails, remember one thing:  kittens are delicious, nutritious little goblin-baiters, cavern explorers, and ambush-finders.

Shades

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Re: Cellular Automata
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2010, 02:45:23 am »



The formulas in n-dimensions aren't actually noticeable more complex. Your just checking more adjacent tiles, and have different thresholds for overcrowding and starvation.

Three dimensional ones can be fun to watch and don't make your brain melt :) Wonder how they would look on a 3D projector ...

And like all four visualisations in 3D the four dimensional games of life will make your brain melt, it's like a hypercube on drugs. (Technically that is a tesseract, but lots of people don't know it as that)
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ein

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Re: Cellular Automata
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2010, 02:59:39 am »

I know how to play 4 dimensional tic-tac-toe.
It works best if you go for 4 in a row instead of 3.

Shades

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Re: Cellular Automata
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2010, 03:13:36 am »

It works best if you go for 4 in a row instead of 3.

I assume your using bigger than the standard 3x3x3x3 grid then?
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Its like playing god with sentient legos. - They Got Leader
[Dwarf Fortress] plays like a dizzyingly complex hybrid of Dungeon Keeper and The Sims, if all your little people were manic-depressive alcoholics. - tv tropes
You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right. - xkcd

ein

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Re: Cellular Automata
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2010, 03:21:14 am »

4x4x4x4.
None of my friends can ever win though, I'm better off just going for 4x4x4.
I did manage to get one of them to figure it out and we played a nice, long game, but then he moved away.

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Cellular Automata
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2010, 05:30:24 am »

I think there was an online 4D Rubik's Cube somewhere. Kinda neat.
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Oglokoog

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Re: Cellular Automata
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2010, 05:31:28 am »

Speaking of Tic-Tac-Toe, does anybody ever play on 3x3? For me it seems that there is no point since it can't be lost if you don't make basic mistakes. I consider it normal to play on "endless" paper.
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So we got monsters above, monsters below, dwarves in the middle and a party in the dining hall. Sounds good to me.
If all else fails, remember one thing:  kittens are delicious, nutritious little goblin-baiters, cavern explorers, and ambush-finders.

Shades

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Re: Cellular Automata
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2010, 07:50:32 am »

Speaking of Tic-Tac-Toe, does anybody ever play on 3x3? For me it seems that there is no point since it can't be lost if you don't make basic mistakes. I consider it normal to play on "endless" paper.

Surely on endless paper whoever goes first wins. Assuming you still do three in a row.
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Its like playing god with sentient legos. - They Got Leader
[Dwarf Fortress] plays like a dizzyingly complex hybrid of Dungeon Keeper and The Sims, if all your little people were manic-depressive alcoholics. - tv tropes
You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right. - xkcd

Oglokoog

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Re: Cellular Automata
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2010, 09:51:30 am »

Speaking of Tic-Tac-Toe, does anybody ever play on 3x3? For me it seems that there is no point since it can't be lost if you don't make basic mistakes. I consider it normal to play on "endless" paper.

Surely on endless paper whoever goes first wins. Assuming you still do three in a row.

No, four or five. Should've said that in the previous post.
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So we got monsters above, monsters below, dwarves in the middle and a party in the dining hall. Sounds good to me.
If all else fails, remember one thing:  kittens are delicious, nutritious little goblin-baiters, cavern explorers, and ambush-finders.

Pathos

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Re: Cellular Automata
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2010, 09:57:09 am »

My friend lost against a computer on tic-tac-toe.

Repeatedly.

We were all sitting there laughing at him, as he steadily got more frustrated at losing. =D

Ah, good times.

But, yeah, 90% of the time you'll just draw until one or the other loses concentration. It's more of a concentration game than a thinking game.
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TheDarkJay

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Re: Cellular Automata
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2010, 10:12:44 am »

My friend lost against a computer on tic-tac-toe.

You can't win against the computer in some implementations. 3x3 Tic-Tac-Toe is very easy to program in so the AI always plays a perfect game.

Life-likes are just pretty really...Also variations can be used for things like simulating Water flow (as is in Dwarf Fortress) and creating cave structures in Roguelikes (probably how DF does that too).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 10:16:42 am by TheDarkJay »
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Starver

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Re: Cellular Automata
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2010, 10:42:04 am »

The rules get more complex. They have to take into account things like reproduction, death due to overpopulation, etc.
I'd argue that while one could make the rules more complex, cellular automata  are mroe to do with ultra-simplistic (and deterministic) rules creating highly complex behaviour[1].

Departing from the strict field of cellular automata (because I'm in danger of Doing Your Homework For You for the OP if I put down my best ideas in that vicinity) let me compare it with the related concept of 'emergent behaviour', so you can get an idea of what sort of thing you could think about.

An instruction to a simple agent like a a toy bulldozer to "move forward until you're shoving more than a certain amount of blocks, then turn a bit and try again" just clears some seemingly random pathways, but get a bunch of them together and they quickly clear an area of the 'rubble', even without direct communication (of course they bump into each other, and treat each other as unmovable rubble, so back off and turn a bit and try again).  This is an idea that might well be employed by advance-guard unmanned rovers to clear future martian landing sites of rubble in preparation for a manned landing...

Or if you want something more contemporary, consider something like the dynamics of a standing crowd at a concert/sports match.  Each individual wants to get to somewhere they can see (or, perhaps at certain times, retreat to the food'n'drink stands or the other facilities) and at the same time avoid being squashed by everyone else trying to get there.

And then (topically, for us over here) consider voting tendencies.  Each person has a favourite party and a propensity for voting tactically if for some reason they feel their normal voting pattern isn't going to matter too much (maybe going for the least disliked of the two parties in with a chance if their candidate has none, or changing to a no-chance candidate if theirs is going to anyway, but they want to 'send a message' of some kind).  And then consider how many people interacting independantly would vote, then how people acting nomimally independantly but aware of everyone else's tendency ("I better vote for <foo>, after all, because the punitive backlash that I'd normally join might be large enough to unseat them").


Now, I'm safe in the knowledge that none of these relate (directly) to cellular automata, but there are similarities there.  CAs are often thought toylike, but I've seen (admitedly purely academic) implementations that have been used similar to artificial neural networks to 'process' grid data and come out with an yes/no answer to some question.  e.g. "Is the basic shape of the pattern convex?"  A bit of a contrived problem being solved there, but it shows both that it's the "field" of the automata which is complex, not the "physics" it obeys, and that there may be purposes.  Hunt around.  Or (if you promise not to quote me verbatim) edge your piece over into emergent behaviour or game theory so that you can say a little something about the real-world examples I've already mentioned.



[1] The 'instruction set' should be fairly basic.  Obviously the more basic they are the less 'programming states' exist.  For the most part, I've only dabbled in them as 'playthings', and a randomly set-up CA is as likely to 'fail over' into a boring behaviour as do something interesting[2]

[2] Usually in Conway-esque systems it's set up so that there's a lower limit to 'survival' (below which the lonely cells 'die'), a slightly higher limit where a cell lights up when it has enough neighbours to be 'born', and an upper limit to when they start to die off because of overcrowding.  Although there's far more combinations if you consider non-contiguous zones of survival, e.g. (from top of my head) all cases of an even a number of 'lit' neighbours toggles the state, an odd number leaves alone.  That could do interesting things.  Or not.  Also depends on the 'state of play'.
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Armok

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Re: Cellular Automata
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2010, 11:45:19 am »

Three dimensional ones can be fun to watch
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Cellular Automata
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2010, 01:09:46 pm »

Closest thing I've seen to a 3D cellular automata is a variant of the Falling Sand game. Falling Sand and its derivatives (wxSand, for example) are also great cellular automata, sometimes with rule sheets up in hundreds of kilobytes. One mod for wxSand allows you to make an underground/underwater base, with individual element reactions allowing to semi-accurately simulate air recycling, power systems (up to nuclear), even various causes of death for the "people" you add there (hunger, suffocation, heat, among others).
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alway

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Re: Cellular Automata
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2010, 10:47:52 pm »

If you are still interested in doing said report on cellular automata, I have run across Rule 110. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_110
It is a cellular automata rule for a 1 dimensional automata which is proven to be turing complete. Or in other words, you can solve every mathematical problem using it (albiet inefficiently).

:O XKCD snuck it into a web comic without me even realizing it... http://xkcd.com/505/
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 10:56:15 pm by alway »
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