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Author Topic: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?  (Read 7741 times)

Pwnzerfaust

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Re: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2010, 09:00:04 am »

The difference between the US and the EU is that the EU is a supranational organization, whereas the US government is an organization more akin to the German government (if we're taking European examples). As far as I'm concerned, the states are purely an organizational convenience for deferring less important tasks to. The Federal Government should have the power to enforce and create laws, run a military, and, above all, be able to override the states. The states are subordinate to the federation. Period.
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Nilocy

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Re: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2010, 09:15:11 am »

Welcome America to 1945!
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Andir

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Re: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2010, 09:18:46 am »

The Federal Government should have the power to enforce and create laws personal rights, run a military, and, above all, be able to override the states.
There you go...
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Pwnzerfaust

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Re: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2010, 09:29:12 am »

The Federal Government should have the power to enforce and create laws personal rights, run a military, and, above all, be able to override the states.
There you go...
If the founders of the US didn't want the US to create laws, they wouldn't have created Congress.
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Andir

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Re: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2010, 10:19:02 am »

The Federal Government should have the power to enforce and create laws personal rights, run a military, and, above all, be able to override the states.
There you go...
If the founders of the US didn't want the US to create laws, they wouldn't have created Congress.

Quote
Section 8 - Powers of Congress

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

It's purpose is to create laws to fulfill it's purpose in meeting the requirements set forth by the Constitution, not to create laws to fulfill whatever purpose they want.  This can be read as: "You can create laws that the States must follow in order to maintain the ability to perform the above tasks ("foregoing": which I spoiler-ed to save space) and to allow other branches to perform their tasks."

Edit:  Essentially, Congress makes laws that the states must follow... not laws which the citizens must follow.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 10:22:09 am by Andir »
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Andir

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Re: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2010, 10:25:54 am »

Also, feel free to review the 10th Amendment:

Quote
Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified  12/15/1791.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Leafsnail

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Re: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2010, 11:29:38 am »

So... under a literal interpretation of the 10th amendment, the United States government can do LITERALLY nothing at all except change the constitution?  Great.  Although I'm pretty sure this only applies if you don't like what they're doing.

Incidentally, is it just me, or are many Republicans stated opponents of healthcare reform?  As in, they don't want to see it changed at all.  Even if you don't like the idea of state healthcare, it's pretty difficult to see how anyone would think of the current system as perfect...
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kuro_suna

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Re: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2010, 11:39:08 am »

Incidentally, is it just me, or are many Republicans stated opponents of healthcare reform?  As in, they don't want to see it changed at all.  Even if you don't like the idea of state healthcare, it's pretty difficult to see how anyone would think of the current system as perfect...

I'm pretty sure their just being obstructionist since their all for expanding medicare(actual socialism and not just fox news pretend socialism).
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lumin

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Re: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2010, 11:39:32 am »

I find the title of this thread amazing in wake of what is happening to Greece right now. The US stock market dived over 1000 points in about 30 minutes yesterday, the highest single drop in over 20 years, because of the chaos going on in Europe right now.

33% of Greece's citizens are employed by the government, including their socialized health care system.  The EU has recommended that Greece begin privatizing their Health Care system to get them out of the disaster that they're in.

To behold the gall of those who still can't understand why Americans are resisting the same mess that Europe has gotten itself into by socialization is simply staggering.  I feel like I'm watching a group of people repeatedly bash their heads in with baseball bats and label it as healthy and not get why others won't do the same.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 11:41:29 am by lumin »
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kuro_suna

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Re: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2010, 11:48:05 am »

Except almost all of Europe has public health care including Germany, the country that's bailing out Greece.
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Andir

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Re: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2010, 12:11:01 pm »

So... under a literal interpretation of the 10th amendment, the United States government can do LITERALLY nothing at all except change the constitution?  Great.
Congress can do lots of stuff, but they've "delegated" their tasks away to the IRS, Treasury, et. al. and now they are sitting around twiddling their thumbs looking for more tasks to take over without monitoring, regulating and controlling these spin-offs.  Just look at the fact that they have to now pass a bill in order to audit the very organization they started to keep our money (the main one I'm thinking of is the Ron Paul led "Audit the Fed")... and some Congress(wo)men would have the gall to prevent that from happening because of who is leading it and because of the little tag in front of his name that says "Republican."

It's easy to create something.  It's hard to maintain it.

Although I'm pretty sure this only applies if you don't like what they're doing.
It applies no matter if you like or dislike what they are doing.  That's their law and the way they MUST run.  Not hand it off to someone else to run while they take vacation.  The founders knew how little power they were giving the government.  They did it on purpose.  This wasn't some decision based on events in the world at the time.  They studied the available documentation on how Rome and other successful nations in history were run and they established a regiment of strict rules that the Federal Government must follow.

If you want something done, get involved in your State.  This is ideal anyway because local government will know better about what is going on than someone 1/4 of the way around the globe, Internet or not.
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

fenrif

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Re: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2010, 12:11:44 pm »

I find the title of this thread amazing in wake of what is happening to Greece right now. The US stock market dived over 1000 points in about 30 minutes yesterday, the highest single drop in over 20 years, because of the chaos going on in Europe right now.

33% of Greece's citizens are employed by the government, including their socialized health care system.  The EU has recommended that Greece begin privatizing their Health Care system to get them out of the disaster that they're in.

To behold the gall of those who still can't understand why Americans are resisting the same mess that Europe has gotten itself into by socialization is simply staggering.  I feel like I'm watching a group of people repeatedly bash their heads in with baseball bats and label it as healthy and not get why others won't do the same.

Ditto on Kuro-suna, Greece and Europe aren't interchangable terms. I was reading an article yesterday about how Greece as a nation is horribly corrupt, with bribes being a huge institutionalized part of daily life. But that's probobly got nothing to do with their health care system failing. Breathe easy though, since you in the US have private for-profit health care there's absolutely no chance of corruption occuring there. ;)

Article about the problems in Greece.

The US health care system is staggeringly expensive, much more expensive than what we have here in the UK. And here in the UK we have the added bonus of not having to choose between food or medicine when we get our paychecks.
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Zangi

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Re: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2010, 12:20:30 pm »

Socialism.  C+ America is allergic to it.
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DJ

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Re: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2010, 12:36:51 pm »

I've never set my house on fire, so I don't want to pay for fire departments. And I most certainly don't want any of my federal tax going to California's fire departments, those assholes can burn, it's their own fault they live in such a flammable state.
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lumin

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Re: Why So Anti-State Healthcare, America?
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2010, 01:36:19 pm »

Except almost all of Europe has public health care including Germany, the country that's bailing out Greece.

Socialism.  C+ America is allergic to it.

I've never set my house on fire, so I don't want to pay for fire departments. And I most certainly don't want any of my federal tax going to California's fire departments, those assholes can burn, it's their own fault they live in such a flammable state.


Ahem...

I feel like I'm watching a group of people repeatedly bash their heads in with baseball bats and label it as healthy and not get why others won't do the same.



If it makes you feel better...I'm not gonna to try to stop ya!   ;)
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