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[Askot Bokbondeler]

/culture

[alway]

7 patties for a Windows 7 Whopper. Awesome.

[Kebooo]

How do you bite into it?

[TheDarkJay]

Humans are always finding ways to kill each other, it's kinda what we do...You think if it was possible America wouldn't drill down to the core of the earth, take over the moon and live there, and declare "Anybody fucks with us, we blow up your planet!"? Or England wouldn't? Or Germany wouldn't? Or France wouldn't?

Hell, most of human history is us trying to figure out bigger and better sticks to hit the person next to us with, and that's never going to change.

And other Animals are no different from humans, except by virtue of thumbs.

[Strife26]

There are litterally tons of nuclear material laying around gaurded by no more than chainlink fences (mostly ex-Soviet material). NPR was talking about that during the international nuclear talks a week or two ago. Thus far, according to the expert they had on the show, there have been 15 thefts of nuclear material that we know of. And we didn't know of them until the theives were actually caught. They didn't even notice it was missing; that's how lax the security is. And these thefts weren't organized crime or anything like that, but just ordinary guys who figured they could get some quick cash from it. My guess is, if terrorists actually did try to acquire nuclear material, they would have enough for a small nuke or at least several dirty bombs in a fairly short amount of time.

Obama's recent nuclear talks are improving things though, as many nations have declared their intent to hand over said nuclear materials to countries/storage facilities where they will be more secure.

As for the original post of exporting knowledge and culture: we should probably import some first. About half of Americans believe global warming does not exist; about 40% are creationists, and the list goes on from there. What we really need to do is get our military spending under control and take down our Soviet-era military-industrial complex before it takes down us. That eats up around half of the federal budget; money much better spent on more positive things like sorely needed infrastructure, education, technology, and space exploration. As for helping the rest of the world, we have too many neo-cons who whine about foreign aid to do much in that department.

HOW DARE AMERICANS HAVE RELIGIONS AND BELIEVE THAT ABIOGENISIS ISN'T VALID!

Also note that the "Half of budget is for military" is kinda completely false. It's a matter of carefully defining the budget as what Congress vote on. In reality half of the budget goes to Social Welfare programs (Medicare, Medicaid) while Defense is about a fourth.

Also, I recommend that everyone go look up nuclear diplomacy and learn what it means.

[Grakelin]

How do you bite into it?

With faith.

[fenrif]

There are litterally tons of nuclear material laying around gaurded by no more than chainlink fences (mostly ex-Soviet material). NPR was talking about that during the international nuclear talks a week or two ago. Thus far, according to the expert they had on the show, there have been 15 thefts of nuclear material that we know of. And we didn't know of them until the theives were actually caught. They didn't even notice it was missing; that's how lax the security is. And these thefts weren't organized crime or anything like that, but just ordinary guys who figured they could get some quick cash from it. My guess is, if terrorists actually did try to acquire nuclear material, they would have enough for a small nuke or at least several dirty bombs in a fairly short amount of time.

Obama's recent nuclear talks are improving things though, as many nations have declared their intent to hand over said nuclear materials to countries/storage facilities where they will be more secure.

As for the original post of exporting knowledge and culture: we should probably import some first. About half of Americans believe global warming does not exist; about 40% are creationists, and the list goes on from there. What we really need to do is get our military spending under control and take down our Soviet-era military-industrial complex before it takes down us. That eats up around half of the federal budget; money much better spent on more positive things like sorely needed infrastructure, education, technology, and space exploration. As for helping the rest of the world, we have too many neo-cons who whine about foreign aid to do much in that department.

HOW DARE AMERICANS HAVE RELIGIONS AND BELIEVE THAT ABIOGENISIS ISN'T VALID!

Also note that the "Half of budget is for military" is kinda completely false. It's a matter of carefully defining the budget as what Congress vote on. In reality half of the budget goes to Social Welfare programs (Medicare, Medicaid) while Defense is about a fourth.

Also, I recommend that everyone go look up nuclear diplomacy and learn what it means.

If you're going to tell everyone to look something up, at least post a link or a description of it. Or failing that some sort of reasoning as to why it's worth looking up.

[alway]

Ah, my mistake, seems the chart I initially found was wrong. It is closer to 1/3 rather than 1/2. Still much larger than it should be. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#Military_spending

[Grakelin]

Sure, if you ignore the military as a career path for the privileged and underprivileged alike, an industry that carries various locales around the United States, and as important parts of the towns where military bases are located.

[Strife26]

Sure, if you ignore the military as a career path for the privileged and underprivileged alike, an industry that carries various locales around the United States, and as important parts of the towns where military bases are located.

Therin lies the problem with trying to get rid of the MI complex. It's already getting awfully weak. What happens to the Rust belt when you take away its primary customer? What happens to Grand Forks ND if you take away their Air Force Base?

What happens to Strife26 when he gets told that he's being drawn-down and that, to save on military spending, his GI benefits are being curtailed (after all, if you're firing half the military they can't ALL go to college)?



Nuclear diplomacy is what happens when only one country has sufficient nuclear forces. Effectively, they can do whatever they want, being able to threaten annihilation with conventional forces. America's period of Nuclear Diplomacy went a helleva long way to fueling the Cold War. If one removes nukes, the first country who rebuilds them gets to declare terms (or, more likely, get nuked by Israel's 'totally only existing when we need them' arsenal). MAD serves to force the world to keep in a general balance.

[Aqizzar]

Therin lies the problem with trying to get rid of the MI complex. It's already getting awfully weak. What happens to the Rust belt when you take away its primary customer? What happens to Grand Forks ND if you take away their Air Force Base?

What happens to Strife26 when he gets told that he's being drawn-down and that, to save on military spending, his GI benefits are being curtailed (after all, if you're firing half the military they can't ALL go to college)?

In simplest terms, the U.S. government won't go bankrupt borrowing money from China that we can never pay back without raising taxes to 60%.  And we won't have an industrial economy based on propping up bloated defense contractors who intentionally deliver substandard product to generate continuing replacement business.

As for nuclear diplomacy, I highly urge anyone who actually wants to know what they're talking about to read The Essence of Decision, a breakdown of the Cuban Missile Crisis, where it's used as a case-study to explain several theories of government action.  Long story short, humans are not "rational" in the way the word is being used here.  They, and more importantly the institutions they make, are "rational" in that they have predicable patterns of action, so long as you know what information they're looking at.

[Duuvian]

Could we go back to the idea of distributing a bunch of cheap/free books in native languages to people? That's the main idea of this thread, it's more of a foreign policy discussion rather then a "Oh no We're an evil race and we're doomed to kill ourselves!!!!!"  Just because Nuclear Weapons are something you can learn about doesn't mean you shouldn't spread knowledge. How do you think the government should go about it?

EDIT: As to the type of books that would be necessary, if we could come up with a book that gives step by step directions in a native language how to do things it would do a lot of good if a child reads it when he's young. He'll know how to do the things he read for the rest of his life. A boyscout type book would be a good start for a mass printing in various languages as a trial run. Basically things that the boyscouts learn for fun that people would use in real life all over the world. For our "culture war" I'd say histories of their local region first, histories of the world second, basically anything educational. Also pump out technical books for the urban areas, like how to use software books and construction theory books. Everything should be printed, but you are right, everyone would have a different idea of what should be printed. For it to work a group of intellectuals (perhaps on the internet) would have to circumvent government and political party alliances as best they may and have an honest discussion on an open forum so that persons with an interest in the subject at a later date might take a look; through the relatively new wonders of the internet. Hmm.

I'd say we should send all books, fantasy, science fiction, thrillers, mysteries. I also think we should REALLY REALLY focus on putting out our classic works such as Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer and such. The developing countries are at a stage where they would be able relate to Huck Finn as he floats down the river, if you catch my drift. At the same time they would learn some history of America and more importantly the backgrounds, morals, feelings, and customs of Americans.

"Printed in America" on the second page would be a victory every time it's read by a foreigner in another language.

Also, if there was less need for the military there would be more doctors, engineers, and such. A military is realistically necessary in the current time period obviously, this thread is discussing the possibility of trying to plan for the future instead just bumbling through one year to the next and just reacting instead of planning.  There is a need in America at the moment for Soldiers and so our economy and infrastructure is hurting. Since obviously world peace shouldn't be achieved through force and everyone agrees on that, why not actually plan to do something else for once?

Also, I think Bay-12 is a good forum to talk about this because of the fact that the nature of Dwarf Fortress attracts intelligent people who may have relevant opinions on this. I'd also like to hear from international people, whether you'd like to have an influx of American made literature to read in your country and have it distributed for free or at least cheap and whether you think your people would read and appreicate it. I'd honestly like to hear  opinions from any country, this will be an interesting topic if people will participate.

Also, if we get enough good ideas I may submit them to a representative of the American government since as a citizen of the Democracy it is my right to do so.

[bjlong]

In simplest terms, the U.S. government won't go bankrupt borrowing money from China that we can never pay back without raising taxes to 60%.  And we won't have an industrial economy based on propping up bloated defense contractors who intentionally deliver substandard product to generate continuing replacement business.

The best thing about this argument is that you assume that if military spending is cut, then spending itself will be cut.

[fenrif]

Could we go back to the idea of distributing a bunch of cheap/free books in native languages to people? That's the main idea of this thread, it's more of a foreign policy discussion rather then a "Oh no We're an evil race and we're doomed to kill ourselves!!!!!"  Just because Nuclear Weapons are something you can learn about doesn't mean you shouldn't spread knowledge. How do you think the government should go about it?

EDIT: As to the type of books that would be necessary, if we could come up with a book that gives step by step directions in a native language how to do things it would do a lot of good if a child reads it when he's young. He'll know how to do the things he read for the rest of his life. A boyscout type book would be a good start for a mass printing in various languages as a trial run. Basically things that the boyscouts learn for fun that people would use in real life all over the world. For our "culture war" I'd say histories of their local region first, histories of the world second, basically anything educational. Also pump out technical books for the urban areas, like how to use software books and construction theory books. Everything should be printed, but you are right, everyone would have a different idea of what should be printed. For it to work a group of intellectuals (perhaps on the internet) would have to circumvent government and political party alliances as best they may and have an honest discussion on an open forum so that persons with an interest in the subject at a later date might take a look; through the relatively new wonders of the internet. Hmm.

I'd say we should send all books, fantasy, science fiction, thrillers, mysteries. I also think we should REALLY REALLY focus on putting out our classic works such as Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer and such. The developing countries are at a stage where they would be able relate to Huck Finn as he floats down the river, if you catch my drift. At the same time they would learn some history of America and more importantly the backgrounds, morals, feelings, and customs of Americans.

"Printed in America" on the second page would be a victory every time it's read by a foreigner in another language.

Also, if there was less need for the military there would be more doctors, engineers, and such. A military is realistically necessary in the current time period obviously, this thread is discussing the possibility of trying to plan for the future instead just bumbling through one year to the next and just reacting instead of planning.  There is a need in America at the moment for Soldiers and so our economy and infrastructure is hurting. Since obviously world peace shouldn't be achieved through force and everyone agrees on that, why not actually plan to do something else for once?

Also, I think Bay-12 is a good forum to talk about this because of the fact that the nature of Dwarf Fortress attracts intelligent people who may have relevant opinions on this. I'd also like to hear from international people, whether you'd like to have an influx of American made literature to read in your country and have it distributed for free or at least cheap and whether you think your people would read and appreicate it. I'd honestly like to hear  opinions from any country, this will be an interesting topic if people will participate.

Also, if we get enough good ideas I may submit them to a representative of the American government since as a citizen of the Democracy it is my right to do so.

We're I in a country that you're suggesting you send books to, I think I'd be kinda offended. You seem to be suggesting that the USA needs to teach other non-americans, how to live their lives? :S

You dont need to send books to people in third world countries to teach them boy scout stuff, they allready know how to survive in their countries. I'm not sure if whats worse, assuming you need to tell other people how to survive, or assuming that people who cant survive would want to read about american customs.

"oh, hey! Wanna know how to build a makeshift shelter? How to identify edible native plant life? After that you can read about how many cars the average american has, and how much food we waste per year! Printed in america!"

I know you don't mean it that way, but that's how it'd seem to people. You're also assuming that there isn't a huge buisness allready established around printing books in hundreds of different languages. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for free books. I just think you're severely underestimating how many books are printed every day in many languages.

[Grakelin]

Could we go back to the idea of distributing a bunch of cheap/free books in native languages to people? That's the main idea of this thread, it's more of a foreign policy discussion rather then a "Oh no We're an evil race and we're doomed to kill ourselves!!!!!"  Just because Nuclear Weapons are something you can learn about doesn't mean you shouldn't spread knowledge. How do you think the government should go about it?

The reason we can't go back to the idea of distributing a bunch of cheap/free books in native languages to people in other countries is because, despite all the ignorant things people put forth on this forum, this is, by far, the most ignorant, ethnocentric idea I have ever seen here.

The United States is not some sort of 'enlightened' country that needs to 'educate' the rest of the world. The United States can't even decide whether or not it wants gay people to be in their army. They can't determine whether they want religion in government or not. A large portion of their population can't decide whether or not they like their system of government. On the other side of that spectrum, a large portion of their population is vehemently nationalistic. The United States has difficulty avoiding going to war with people on opposite sides of the planet.

But let's not just look at the United States. Let's look at the entire Western world.

A massive portion of people in the West are functionally illiterate. Which is to say that they can read and write, but not at an academic level. This portion is very high. Here, read more about it. Western institutions seem to have this bad habit of tearing eachother down, tearing down institutions from poorer regions, and actively ignore crimes against humanity, such as genocide, so as not to get involved.

So my question here is this: How, exactly, do you expect that mailing out some Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Mystery Thriller novels is going to help educate impoverished nations of the world when the vast majority of the population of the countries who produced them don't have the skills necessary to interpret and understand them in the first place?

You're either completely unaware of the world outside of your local community or you are trolling (every time I reread your post, I am more and more convinced it is the latter). People in impoverished communities might be able to relate to Huck Finn floating down the river? Really? They're more likely to relate to John the Savage from 'Brave New World' after you waltz in and stuff your customs down their throat.

It might be better if you read some books from other parts of the world. I think you should REALLY REALLY focus on looking for classic works such as the Mahabharata and such. I think you're at a stage where you would be able to relate to the Pandavas as they struggle to take the throne, if you catch my drift. At the same time, you would learn some history of other countries, and more importantly the backgrounds, morals, feelings, and customs of world citizens.