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Author Topic: Solar Power and alternative energy  (Read 4301 times)

bjlong

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Solar Power and alternative energy
« on: April 21, 2010, 08:55:06 pm »

So I attended a lecture today on the state of the industry when it comes to solar power. The results were very interesting, and pretty non-biased, so I thought I'd post them ON THE INTARWEBS!!!

For everyone who's not in the know, solar power has two big problems: the construction expense, and storing energy during non-peak power times. The first one is pretty understandable: it's expensive to create mirrors, or photo-voltaic cells, and so on, which means that the power that comes from those plants has to be expensive to justify their operation. It's also a big cost out front for companies to foot, hoping for future profits, so development isn't as fast as many would like, and what does get constructed usually doesn't put out enough power to be a significant factor in a city's infrastructure.

The second is a little harder to comprehend. The power demand for a city varies with the time of day pretty substantially, so the power companies have to be able to deliver a lot of power at certain times of the day, and less power late into the night. With traditional power plants, you just start burning more fuel. With solar plants, you can't do that--the sun comes out when it wants to, and there's nothing you can do about it. So you have to somehow store the power from the sun, which is pretty difficult work, and ends up falling prey to the 2nd law of thermodynamics--you lose energy storing the energy, then lose energy getting the energy back out.

Enter German engineering. This solar power plant puts out 50 mega-watts (which is ~5% of what a typical city needs). The interesting thing is how it works: by heating up a special oil, and using that to melt salt. The salt is then stored in large silos, which are thermally insulated. The key here is that the molten salt doesn't need to do anything else to become storable energy--it's storable as it is! It cuts out the middle-man. Furthermore, using special engineering tricks, they're able to pump heat into these silos, as well as run a standard set of turbines at the same time. In essence, they've found a very good solution to the second problem. 

You're asking about cost? The cost per kWh is ~.50 cents, which is ten times what standard US citizens pay now. However, this is much better than most other solar plants.

So this doesn't sound like a huge deal--after all, it's only 5% of a typical city's power needs, right? Well, the silos can be scaled up easily--they're just big tanks with salt in them. And the solar collectors don't mind if you add another row. And those engineering tricks? Just pipes and pumps, and those can be scaled up easily. So, what I'm saying is that we can easily scale this up into the giga-watt range.

As a bit of a further note, this still doesn't work everywhere--just where everything's bright and hot all the time. In particular, the Mojave desert is getting a lot of attention from power companies, who've seen the pretty tremendous success that the Andasol plant had. Now, I wouldn't expect plans for these types of power plants to show up on a casual google search, because all the technology is public domain, so the companies that would want to use this approach would have to do it as quietly as possible. But! I'm definitely interested in seeing where this goes, especially as the US power grid is starting to age.

Now, all that said, what do you think? Is the price jump reasonable? Are you for alternative energy at all costs? Would nuclear power be a better... herm, alternative? Do you just want to kill and burn as much of the environment as possible?

Discuss!
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Ampersand

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Re: Solar Power and alternative energy
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2010, 09:15:22 pm »

I've heard of this method for generating electricity, and for the most part, it's a fairly reasonable way to go about it, save for the problems you've mentioned and the added expense. Here's the real crux of the problem, though;

1. It will not work anywhere but between the tropics due to the requirements for direct sunlight for expended periods of time.

2. Fifty cents per kWh is far too expensive to be practical in the modern market unless a vast number of people are willing to go without.

Furthermore, Nuclear Power, though being touted as the solution, is really a non-starter, because the amount of fissile Uranium on the planet cannot produce nearly enough power over the long term to meet demands.

The ONLY real long term solution is Fusion power, which is just so utterly complicated and difficult, I'm not sure we'll ever see it before the Oil wells all run dry.

What irritates me is that despite knowing we're not going to have oil forever, people just ignore the problem and continue to turn oil into plastics to manufacture useless plastic crap, and when supplies run low, think the obvious answer is drilling for more natural gas and oil, completely missing the point.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Solar Power and alternative energy
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2010, 09:44:20 pm »

The major hinderance to Alt. Power is the inability to store industrial amounts of power. I live in Mojave, and I know we have two?? solar plants. I know one of them is a solar thermal steam generator. Where the sun rays are redirected at a boiler. I forget what the other kind is. I also live at the world second largest wind farm.

We can't afford to not invest in these alt. powers, but as of now its incapable of sustaining our current and future needs. When they'll be able to is unknown. Solar panel efficiency crappy. The highest ration is 14%? On high end satellites and space stations. The commercial ones are in the 9% region of sun light converted into electrical energy.

Wind power generates most of its energy during the time with least call for it.

Nuclear power, isn't all that bad compared to its reputation. There only been two nuclear meltdowns. One went exactly as it should with close to zero danger to the populace, (3 Mile Island), the other was built badly, ran badly and suddenly asploded. It was a failure from the get go.

Modern Nuclear plants produce almost no waste, and I think the fifth generation can even use the waste from the older plants. (Have to reread that article.) The older ones don't produce that much waste compared to other plants type (well cept for green ones.)

The waste in opinion doesn't need to be held for 10k years, as I believe the current US mandate. Nuclear waste is an issue for my grand kids. 125 years should be long enough for a novel method of removal to be thought up.

They're ready to be built, they can take up the power need. They're as cheap per Kw/h as other plants.

They aren't with their set backs. Meltdown aren't one of them. 3rd generation plants are nigh impossible meltdown and 4th generation plants you need purposefully cause to melt down.

Its fuel supply. The radioactive substance is getting rarer and demand is increasing.  Europe, is gobbling all they can for their collection of Nuclear plants.
-=-

Fusion Plants though are on the horizon. Like near horizon. 20 something years off. There some awesome laser initaited stuff that showing fucking awesome growth.
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Ampersand

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Re: Solar Power and alternative energy
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2010, 03:26:24 am »

The problem really is getting a self-sustaining fusion reaction that generates more energy out than energy put into it. Figure that out, and we're set for well beyond the lifetime of the sun.
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Shades

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Re: Solar Power and alternative energy
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2010, 05:16:54 am »

2. Fifty cents per kWh is far too expensive to be practical in the modern market unless a vast number of people are willing to go without.

Don't forget that is prior to scaling up production. But yes it's still way to expensive. A lot of this cost is storage, generation costs are on par with wind which is only marginally (okay 50%) more expensive than conventional methods.

The ONLY real long term solution is Fusion power, which is just so utterly complicated and difficult, I'm not sure we'll ever see it before the Oil wells all run dry.

Lookup the polywell reactor experiments. These guys seem to be closest and last year were talking about 7 or 8 year until commercial production.

Nuclear power, isn't all that bad compared to its reputation. There only been two nuclear meltdowns. One went exactly as it should with close to zero danger to the populace, (3 Mile Island), the other was built badly, ran badly and suddenly asploded. It was a failure from the get go.

Agreed, but the big problem with nuclear power is start up time. Current estimates are 20 years to build a new reactor and power-station complex. Which is basically too far away.

The problem really is getting a self-sustaining fusion reaction that generates more energy out than energy put into it. Figure that out, and we're set for well beyond the lifetime of the sun.

Assuming you mean electrical energy input (and not violate the theory of energy conservation sum total energy input) then that has been done.
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Pillow_Killer

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Re: Solar Power and alternative energy
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2010, 05:31:42 am »

Too cheap for the consumers. Nobody is going to use it.
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Neonivek

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Re: Solar Power and alternative energy
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2010, 07:27:03 am »

The issue with Fusion from what I am aware of is that they haven't got the mechanical kinks worked out.

In essence they are trying to build a proper engine. (The second you hear the term "Magnets" you know it is convoluted)

There is oddly a lot of potential in Solar Power but so far it hasn't been fully realised yet and probably won't be.
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Shades

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Re: Solar Power and alternative energy
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2010, 07:30:38 am »

In essence they are trying to build a proper engine. (The second you hear the term "Magnets" you know it is convoluted)

Why would you think that? I'm assuming I misunderstood you, and you mean reactor not engine but I still don't know what your getting at.
And why would magnets not be a sensible way of controlling particle streams? Seems to be the standard method.
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Neonivek

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Re: Solar Power and alternative energy
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2010, 07:33:35 am »

Engine is just a metaphor. They know how combustion works, how to use gasoline to do it, they just haven't built a proper engine.

As for magnets it is a joke about how much science loves magnets. (Anti-gravity chambers? Those will involve magnets)
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Virex

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Re: Solar Power and alternative energy
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2010, 07:42:19 am »

Production costs of solar cells may soon go down, seeing that there are a bunch of research groups working on making them from plastic (we even got one on my department) and even printing them, similar to newspapers. The downside is that they produce far less power per m2, but that can be compensated by using more m2, since land is cheap in most deserts
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Shades

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Re: Solar Power and alternative energy
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2010, 07:46:30 am »

Engine is just a metaphor. They know how combustion works, how to use gasoline to do it, they just haven't built a proper engine.

In which case check out the polywell project they claim the 100mw net gain reactor will be running 2012. Although getting information out of them appears to be like drawing blood from a stone due to the US Navy contract. However the project was run by Dr Buzzard (until he died) who had a good reputation so I'm hopeful it's not all just outright lies :)
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DJ

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Re: Solar Power and alternative energy
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2010, 07:48:16 am »

Don't write off fission yet. There's a metric crapton of thorium (according to Wiki, it's as common as lead).
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MrWiggles

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Re: Solar Power and alternative energy
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2010, 01:43:31 pm »

Yea, I'm confident that Fusion will be reached in my life time, but I dont think it'll happen in the next 10 years. There been to numerous projects that have been saying 'within the next ten years!', and we dont have them.


It'll be world changing, probably second industrial revolution, well in this case the fusion revolution.

Room temp super conductors aren't to far off either. I've heard ~40 or so years for commercial application.
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Re: Solar Power and alternative energy
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2010, 02:01:42 pm »

I think a good alternative is wind energy. We have much higher windspeeds in the upper atmosphere so a grounded, weather resistant balloon fitted with a simple, light turbine could gather wind in the upper atmosphere. It could tethered with a hollow steel cable that would allow for piping of gas (to keep it aloft), monitoring of gas pressure (to automate refueling of gas), and transmission of power. A cluster of these could power a home or something! While that may not seem like much, we can obviously expand on this. Currently wind-based power is somewhat inefficient and relies on the surface winds, which are kind of fickle. There are parts of the atmosphere where wind is ALWAYS blowing, which is what we need for sustainable wind energy.

Fission/Fusion reactors are likely to be the wave of the future, though. Fuse hydrogen into something heavier, then break it apart to make hydrogen.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Solar Power and alternative energy
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2010, 02:17:50 pm »

I've heard of high elevation wind farms using the jet streams. There are a host of issues. The major one is that we don't have materials for it. Its high stress environment that fairly cold. It would need to bend and sway while being extremely light. The cold would cause ice sheeting, and fight any bend materiel has.

The tether itself couldn't be steel. Its simply to heavy and not strong enough. It suffers similar issues of a space elevator. There a lot of strain and temperature variances.

The other issue is transmission. I've heard the proposal to continual flight air farms, though there is no practical method of transmission. Even a tether jet stream farm would have issues with transitions. Commercial power lines are thick, and heavy which makes it impractical to even ten kilometers up. Though it'll probably be close to 12 due to not being a straight line up.

A Jet Stream air farm is just impractical and currently impossible.

However off shore wind farms coupled with ocean current & ocean wave capture are very doable and very practical. Its main issue is transmission. We're talking 2 to 5 miles off the shore, before it hits the domestic power grid. Its doable but hard.
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