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Author Topic: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans  (Read 15963 times)

Blackburn

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Re: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans
« Reply #180 on: April 28, 2010, 11:15:15 pm »

Can we please end the topic? It's lost its purpose, I think.
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Hydra

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Re: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans
« Reply #181 on: April 29, 2010, 02:41:38 am »

Losing is fun.

People should stop hammering that into every single person who complains about something on the forums. I don't consider 'losing' fun, especially not if I 'lose' because of bugs.

Can we please end the topic? It's lost its purpose, I think.

You could always not read it? :)
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Apolloin

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Re: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans
« Reply #182 on: May 11, 2010, 03:04:11 am »

Creativity, believe it or not, is NOT in short supply in the Industry. I know that post-consolidation it's all good fun to point at the surviving (read:Successful or Lucky) studios and claim that they're all Corporate Shills who've lost that quivering, wide-eyed sense of fun and innocence that says that anything and everything is possible. It's not accurate or fair, though.

In my time in the industry the biggest problem I saw was that half of the time it couldn't find it's own arse with both hands. There was a clash going on between the professional and creative side of the business that is probably still being played out, because when either side wins we seem to get poorer quality games. Lack of creativity wasn't an issue, it was just that creativity is absolutely no help at all when it comes to managing asset lists, estimating how long or hard something is to complete, learning from the mistakes of the past, managing communication within continually expanding teams and successfully managing growing budgets so that the focus is kept on the things that will, as many have said, ACTUALLY MAKE THE GAME MORE FUN.

I maintain that games like DF really oughtn't to use the professional game development communities jargon - as it just don't fit. That said, I also reckon if y'are going to use that jargon then y'ought to use it properly, otherwise you come off looking like you don't know your Alpha from your Omega, but I think I may have made that point once or twice earlier so I'll sidle away from it now...

Now the bit where I respond to the peeps who attacked me. I'm sorry if some of you don't like my posting style, I'm a language wonk and I'm English and I'm overly verbose, so my postings can come out looking as if Professor Yaffle from Bagpuss wrote them. (Youtube it, if you're confused). All I meant to do was come in here and tell you what the word you were using meant. That's it. I am kinda proud that I put the time I did into following a career that I was passionate about, but I'd be the first to agree that I'm not exactly Carmack, Specter, Molyneux or, god forbid, Shigeru Miyamoto. The only reason I raised it in the first place was that it was kinda germane to the point I was arguing, you know, claiming that I knew what Alpha, Beta and so forth meant.

If you guys want to have your own definition of Alpha so that it means whatever Toady has decided it means, then more power to your arm. Just, you know, if you use it outside this forum be aware that it doesn't mean what you think it means to anyone else, that's all.

It's also a little harsh to say that I'm 'everything that's wrong with the games industry at the moment' don't you think? For a start, if you didn't know what Alpha means then you REALLY don't know what's screwing up the games industry. Also it's inaccurate, as I'm out of the industry and have been for a couple of years now. If you're not liking the games that are on the market now, you can blame any bugger but me.

Finally, I doubt you can find the conventions I defined within the hallowed manuals of the International Standards Organisation. I imagine that you can't find any Cockney Rhyming Slang in there either, but East End thieves have been using it in their line of work for a long while. I bet you also won't find the definition of the term 'Money Shot' there, but I'd advise against using it as a convention to describe a picture of your next pay cheque. Seriously - telling me off for being pedantic by insisting that widely accepted terms are not properly defined without ISO classifications is a bit counterproductive...

Anyway, apologies to anyone I honked off. I'm a big believer in full and frank exchanges of opinions. I still find it a little odd that you all decided the sanest course of action in response to a misuse of a technical term is to redefine the term. What can I say except "Nonetheless, it still moves".
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Retro

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Re: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans
« Reply #183 on: May 11, 2010, 04:42:50 am »

I find it kind of odd that the last seven pages of this thread, which I just read, are more or less entirely about what the word 'alpha' means in various contexts. Is it fine to say "Toady's not done yet"? I'd rather just do that :\

Returning to the original purpose of this thread: The OP was basically let down by the release. When he was criticized for feeling such a way (which seems to happen inevitably whenever anyone expresses a feeling different from impartially loving the game) I attempted to defend him and got called a jackass for saying he had a legitimate opinion. He still does. It's not really fair to say 'You can't be frustrated with a bug because the game is incomplete and eventually will be finished, therefore any complaints you have will be rendered moot at an indeterminate date sometime in the future.' Case in point, a quote from a few posts ago: "Some random kid's rant about how a one-man show in alpha stage didn't meet his expectations after seven years of work [...] it was an immature and ignorant OP." It's one of the few flaws I find with this terrific community - anything people have to say against the game, be it a complaint or a minor frustration, is met with something like 'It's one man working on it, you're lucky to have a game at all!' and arbitrarily being insulted while having baseless and devaluing assumptions drawn up about you. That seems to me about as sensible as saying 'You might as well not brush your teeth anymore, you're going to die one day sooner or later.' What's wrong with loving the game while still not being impressed by a release? I love DF dearly, but I haven't felt compelled to play the new version much, nor do I really like the new underground.

tl;dr Toady isn't going to be done anytime soon, so let's try to live in the present. And be more respectful and receptive, at that.

Deathworks

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Re: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans
« Reply #184 on: May 11, 2010, 04:59:00 am »

Hi!

I agree with you , Retro, that mutual respect is necessary. However, I am afraid that human communication is not quite as simple. Whenever we write, our emotions influence our wording, making us choose this word rather than that word. Such decisions are based on our language experience and our surroundings. Thanks to the wonderful possibilities of the internet, the readers more often than not come from a completely different background. I wouldn't be surprised if a large section of the community were not native speakers of English but of another European tongue (German for me) or maybe even an Asian or African tongue (just examples, there are more, I know). Thus, it is very easy to have intentions misunderstood. Especially when you are critical about things, it is quite easy for people to feel insulted because they misunderstand your intentions. And once people feel insulted, they may say things that can be perceived as insulting in return, causing a spiral of insults rather than tantrums.

There is no easy solution, and I do not want to justify insulting and attacking people, as it is behavior you should avoid in my opinion. I guess we all should be careful before responding and posting, doing our best to understand what the others are trying to say and at the same time giving at least a little bit of thought on how we can best convey what we really want to express.

Another thing about this topic is, that it is also a steaming hot topic. Especially because we have newbies asking with which version they should start learning the game, the differences in opinions on 40d, 40d#, and 31 have a tendency to clash. I have stated elsewhere, that while I think those who feel more comfortable with 40d/40d# should stay there until the bug fixes have reached the point where they are comfortable with them without having to fear harassment, I also think that overall, 31 is actually easier for getting a newbie started into the basics of the peaceful side of the game. At least that last part is something people have disagreed on that occasion, so I think we are moving on contested terrain there. And contested terrain increases the likelihood of tempers flaring up.

Deathworks
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Mfbrew

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Re: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans
« Reply #185 on: May 11, 2010, 09:24:10 am »

Quote
For a start, if you didn't know what Alpha means then you REALLY don't know what's screwing up the games industry.

Logical fallacy- Lack of interest in the subtleties of one piece of jargon does not preclude understanding of the whole picture.

You don't have to know the technical names of surgical operations or comprehend internal financial terminology of the insurance industry to wager an educated guess why the US health care system could benefit from reform.   
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Leesin

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Re: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans
« Reply #186 on: May 11, 2010, 09:45:27 am »

How did this thread even go 13 pages..? it's simple... if you don't like 2010, play 40d until 2010 version is updated/bug fixed enough, like I did.
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dogstile

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Re: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans
« Reply #187 on: May 11, 2010, 10:38:33 am »

Quote
For a start, if you didn't know what Alpha means then you REALLY don't know what's screwing up the games industry.

Logical fallacy- Lack of interest in the subtleties of one piece of jargon does not preclude understanding of the whole picture.

You don't have to know the technical names of surgical operations or comprehend internal financial terminology of the insurance industry to wager an educated guess why the US health care system could benefit from reform.

No, but you do have to so you avoid looking like a complete nonce.
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What? He's firing from the hip.

Rex_Nex

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Re: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans
« Reply #188 on: May 11, 2010, 10:41:20 am »

It went 13 pages because some sapper wanted to derail the thread's choo-choo train :(
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Schilcote

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Re: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans
« Reply #189 on: May 17, 2010, 11:33:58 am »

Quote
For a start, if you didn't know what Alpha means then you REALLY don't know what's screwing up the games industry.

Logical fallacy- Lack of interest in the subtleties of one piece of jargon does not preclude understanding of the whole picture.

You don't have to know the technical names of surgical operations or comprehend internal financial terminology of the insurance industry to wager an educated guess why the US health care system could benefit from reform.

No, but you do have to so you avoid looking like a complete nonce.

Better yet,
No, but you do have to know something about politics and economics.
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I dunno, you guys have survived Thomas the tank engine, golems, zombies, nuclear explosions, laser whales, and being on the same team as ragnarock.  I don't think something as tame as a world ending rain of lava will even slow you guys down.

Mfbrew

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Re: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans
« Reply #190 on: May 17, 2010, 12:43:32 pm »

You guys are correct that specific knowledge lends to
credibility.  I don't withdraw my assertion, but I do have to concede that point.

The fact remains:

Industry insiders yelling at us for using the word "alpha" inappropriately are the equivalent of your great-grandparents scolding you for using the word "cool" as slang instead of as "low temperature but not quite cold."
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Werdna

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Re: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans
« Reply #191 on: May 17, 2010, 04:18:31 pm »


I maintain that games like DF really oughtn't to use the professional game development communities jargon - as it just don't fit. That said, I also reckon if y'are going to use that jargon then y'ought to use it properly, otherwise you come off looking like you don't know your Alpha from your Omega, but I think I may have made that point once or twice earlier so I'll sidle away from it now...

What other word could Toady have possibly chosen to clearly convey 'unfinished but playable game,' to the gamers (not the industry) who are his audience?  As a self-described language wonk, can you suggest a better word? 

It seems to me that the words Alpha and Beta have developed broader, looser meanings to the mass software-consuming audience outside the software industry (15 years in embedded software, here).  He picked the term that gamers would understand, and from the posts here its pretty clear his audience completely gets it.  Its like someone quibbling with "Dr. Moriarty was the nemesis of Sherlock Holmes".  By strict definition, it should be the other way around, but the modern definition of nemesis has changed and become broader in meaning.
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans
« Reply #192 on: May 18, 2010, 02:25:52 am »

I mean, really guys?

I know we're a forum comprised of neckbeards and such as but internet-arguing over the precise meaning of "alpha" for this long makes me want to facedesk.

It's a game. Have fun. Play it, or don't play it. Post about it, or don't post about it. Complain about it or tell us how much you like it. Send Toady a message praising him or airing out your grievances.

However, calling out the "fans" in a thread is just a douchetastic troll move that reeks of "quit having fun guys!" and impotent spazz-flailing and I don't know why people bother wasting energy typing out a respons...

Oh I quit.

Morrigi

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Re: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans
« Reply #193 on: May 18, 2010, 03:28:59 pm »

This is the most pointless thread on the forum.
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sinister87

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Re: Not Exactly a Loveletter to Fans
« Reply #194 on: May 18, 2010, 05:49:17 pm »

???  DF is great and thanks to Toady for making it.  But I don't get this release.  This is not what I have been waiting 2 years for.  It's great that goblins have been seriously improved but he's also seriously weakened DF standbys: marksdwarves, wardogs and traps.  The game plays the same as the 2008 release, except the player is totally screwed.  Where that release became too easy quickly, this release becomes unplayable due to the military interface.  Goblins did need to be tougher, but I need the ability to train my dwarves to fight them.  I need a fair fight where if I build the right fortifications for my guys and and give them the right training facilities and equipment, they will succeed.  Currently not the case.  Frankly the improvements to the world generator don't make this game better.
Stop bitching and play like a dwarf...
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