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Author Topic: Weapon research  (Read 148413 times)

Rowanas

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #360 on: December 06, 2010, 03:39:43 pm »

Hmm... Qoon, it's been suggested, but it's just not doable right now. Making items out of several metals would partially solve this, but It could be incredibly complex to make even a single item if you have to specify everything about it. Everything can be solved with menus, though :D
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

qoonpooka

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #361 on: December 06, 2010, 03:41:54 pm »

Also:  Do maces not have stats reflecting pointy-bits?    It is my understanding of Hammer vs. Mace that Maces give up some of the striking mass in order to deliver an array of shallow, piercing wounds due to shaped heads and (in the case of morning stars) spikey bits (which are extra dwarfy).

Seems to me that maces should be faster and stack the damage against armored opponents in the light-to-medium wound area?  While hammers (which were used to defeat armor anyway) should continue to be great at shattering bones, etc (which they clearly are).
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forsaken1111

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #362 on: December 06, 2010, 03:44:01 pm »

You misunderstand the term Dwarfy. Anything which makes good, sound sense cannot be Dwarfy.

Pumping magma up 50 levels in a nice safe pump stack? NOT dwarfy.

Dropping a massive chunk of 50z tall stone so magma splashes up into your channels? DWARFY
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qoonpooka

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #363 on: December 06, 2010, 03:44:47 pm »

Hmm... Qoon, it's been suggested, but it's just not doable right now. Making items out of several metals would partially solve this, but It could be incredibly complex to make even a single item if you have to specify everything about it. Everything can be solved with menus, though :D

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that you be required to specify that the thing be /filled/ with the lead?  But since weapons breaking isn't part of combat - just getting the weight of the lead bar to figure into the weight of the final weapon should do the trick.  If lead is the only material you use for this, for example, the recipe isn't THAT hard: Filled Mace = Lead Bar + Coke Bar + Requested Metal?
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qoonpooka

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #364 on: December 06, 2010, 03:45:34 pm »

You misunderstand the term Dwarfy. Anything which makes good, sound sense cannot be Dwarfy.

Pumping magma up 50 levels in a nice safe pump stack? NOT dwarfy.

Dropping a massive chunk of 50z tall stone so magma splashes up into your channels? DWARFY

My apologies then, I was under the impression that an exception to this was spikes which were always and in every possible conditions of things, dwarfy.
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forsaken1111

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #365 on: December 06, 2010, 03:48:02 pm »

You misunderstand the term Dwarfy. Anything which makes good, sound sense cannot be Dwarfy.

Pumping magma up 50 levels in a nice safe pump stack? NOT dwarfy.

Dropping a massive chunk of 50z tall stone so magma splashes up into your channels? DWARFY

My apologies then, I was under the impression that an exception to this was spikes which were always and in every possible conditions of things, dwarfy.
Only when spikes are the most obtuse way to perform an action.

Training sessions which last for months in order to raise dwarven armor, shield, and dodge skill? NOT Dwarfy.

Room filled with potentially deadly pet-murdering spikes which are triggered repeatedly to train the dodge skill? DWARFY
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Rowanas

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #366 on: December 06, 2010, 04:29:35 pm »

The line between not dwarfy and dwarfy is a thin one. However, the line between not dwarfy and undwarfy is obvious and clear as day.
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

Orkel

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #367 on: December 10, 2010, 08:49:54 am »

Does anyone have any thoughts as to what materials do better for Crossbow bolts? Also, is there any benefit to using leather armor?

In vanilla 31.18, all bolts penetrate all armor. Overpowered, but it can be partially fixed by going in the raws and editing item_weapon.txt, change [SHOOT_MAXVEL] from 1000 to 30 for both bow and crossbow.
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otherdwarf

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #368 on: December 10, 2010, 12:31:34 pm »

Hmm... Qoon, it's been suggested, but it's just not doable right now. Making items out of several metals would partially solve this, but It could be incredibly complex to make even a single item if you have to specify everything about it. Everything can be solved with menus, though :D

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that you be required to specify that the thing be /filled/ with the lead?  But since weapons breaking isn't part of combat - just getting the weight of the lead bar to figure into the weight of the final weapon should do the trick.  If lead is the only material you use for this, for example, the recipe isn't THAT hard: Filled Mace = Lead Bar + Coke Bar + Requested Metal?

Something like this can be done. But it requires a workaround.
Create a custom reaction: 1xLead + 1xAdamantine -> 1xUtopium and give Utopium all the material properties of Adamantine except for the weight which is that of lead. And you have a reasonably good approximation of a lead-filled adamantine shell.
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Miuramir

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #369 on: December 10, 2010, 02:53:18 pm »

Hmm... Qoon, it's been suggested, but it's just not doable right now. Making items out of several metals would partially solve this, but It could be incredibly complex to make even a single item if you have to specify everything about it. Everything can be solved with menus, though :D

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that you be required to specify that the thing be /filled/ with the lead?  But since weapons breaking isn't part of combat - just getting the weight of the lead bar to figure into the weight of the final weapon should do the trick.  If lead is the only material you use for this, for example, the recipe isn't THAT hard: Filled Mace = Lead Bar + Coke Bar + Requested Metal?

Something like this can be done. But it requires a workaround.
Create a custom reaction: 1xLead + 1xAdamantine -> 1xUtopium and give Utopium all the material properties of Adamantine except for the weight which is that of lead. And you have a reasonably good approximation of a lead-filled adamantine shell.

I've been considering multi-material weapons and something similar to the above hack as a short-term and/or testing measure. 

My thoughts on what I'd ideally like is that three materials should cover almost all of the common combinations adequately:

1) Face / Edge / Shell: On blunt weapons, the primary striking surface; on piercing weapons, the primary point and immediate reinforcement; on cutting weapons the cutting edge; something like an metal-banded or nail-studded quarterstaff might also use this for the bands / studs.  Depending on design, probably 5% to 20% of the mass of the business end.  Almost the sole contributor of max edge and hardness; provides some toughness and mass; for special creature weapons the part that contacts the creature most directly (either for cases where a creature is unusually weak to a material, or where a creature tends to damage weapons not having some property). 

2) Core: On blunt weapons, the main body or filling of the business end; on piercing weapons, the backing material behind the point; on cutting weapons the core of the blade (and also the tang probably).  Depending on design, the remaining 80% to 95% of the mass of the business end.  For most non-polearm weapons the primary contributor to mass, also provides some toughness. 

3) Haft / handle / shaft / grip: Provides two important functions: a place to hold the weapon so that strength may be transferred to it, and serves as a lever arm to allow speed / strength tradeoffs.  In some weapons, a comparatively trivial fraction of the mass compared to the business end; in others (particularly polearms and whips) the majority of the weapon. 

The below examples also sort of illustrate another idea I've had, which is to add two improvements available to many materials: "hardened" and "spring".  "Hardened" materials have had some combination of micro-alloying, surface coatings, heat treatment, quench treatment, tempering, etc. applied to increase their max edge, hardness, and rigidity... but usually at the cost of reducing their toughness and flexibility.  In other words, they can hold a sharper edge but are more brittle.  "Spring" materials have similar sorts of treatment, but aimed in the other direction; they are tougher and more flexible, but less good at holding an edge.  A possible third option is "Softened", which isn't used much except for training weapons and a few special cases; it increases the flexibility greatly at the cost of just about everything else; at the DF level, this is probably best treated as part of "spring". 

Historically, sometimes the extra treatment(s) were primarily at the material-refinement stage, but I think more often at the weapon-production stage.  There are two obvious options: one which is fairly easy to mod would be to simply create additional types of bars, so for instance instead of just "steel bar" there would be "mild steel bar", "hardened steel bar", and "spring steel bar".  The existing production chain would produce a "mild steel bar", then there would be a new order to produce a "hardened steel bar" or "spring steel bar" from a "mild steel bar" by using time and fuel / magma.  The other option would be to treat this as a finishing option, perhaps similar to "Encrust": "Temper", which would post-hoc improve an already created weapon.  This might be more realistic some of the time, but I think is more hassle in the DF setting and harder to mod in. 

Some possible examples, drawing from history and common fiction:

Steel warhammer: hardened steel face, steel core, hardwood haft
Weighted Maul: steel face, lead core, mild steel haft
Macuahuitl ("obsidian shortsword"): obsidian face, hardwood core, hardwood haft
Katana: hardened steel face, spring steel core, hardwood haft
Iron-banded quarterstaff: iron face, hardwood core, hardwood haft
Bronze Scourge: bronze face, leather core, leather haft
Steel Pick: hardened steel face, steel core, hardwood haft
Superior Steel Pick: hardened steel face, spring steel core, spring steel haft
Neanderthal Spear: hardened hardwood face, hardwood core, hardwood haft
Stone-Age Spear: flint face, flint core, hardwood haft
Pilum: hardened iron face, softened (or spring) iron core, hardwood haft
Stiletto: hardened steel face, steel core, steel haft
Hazmat Hammer: hardened beryllium bronze face, lead core, spring aluminium bronze haft
Ultimate Hammer: adamantine face, platinum core, spring steel haft

The same face / core / haft system could be extended to crafts and armors with only a bit more work, perhaps renamed "surface / core / handle".  A "Quimbaya-style semi-ceremonial breastplate of treated tumbaga" might work out in DF terms to "rose gold surface, black bronze core, leather handle". 

Now, how to test these?  In the short term, modding in a bunch of new bars (and possibly logs) to handle particularly interesting or useful cases seems to be the direct and immediate answer.  For instance, one common combination might be called "good steel", which would take 2 steel and 1 wood input, and produce 3 bars of "good steel" something with the output stats equivalent to hardened steel for cutting, intermediate steel for toughness, and slightly less than steel for weight.  A "superior steel" reaction might then take 3 steel bars input to produce an early super-metal with the edge properties of hardened steel and the toughness properties of spring steel.  A "weighted steel" reaction might be 2 steel and a lead, with most properties dominated by the steel but significantly heavier from the lead, and so on. 
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Xenos

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #370 on: December 10, 2010, 03:16:33 pm »

You have to keep in mind that filling something (such as a warhammer) which is made of adamantine and filled with lead should have a little bit more give than a pure adamantine hammer.  When you suddenly increase the mass by 50 times, it will affect how the object will bend etc.  So basically, make the adamantine able to bend slightly more when combined with lead for the hammer.  (This is a very general example, any modded in composites should follow this same principle though.  It is mainly to simulate real physics a little better.  And with these reactions, you could speed up the process for making weapons.  It doesnt make sense that 2 bars which each could make a hammer would yield one hammer, so make the reaction yield two hammers.)

Also, just changing the density to be the same as the most dense material would be really really weird.  averaging them would be better but that still assumes its a 1:1 ratio of metals used in the object.  (a lead+adamantine hammer would have more adamantine than lead.  I would make it about 4/5 adamantine by volume.)  I am being generous and making it a big hammer, so if it were 20% lead, then you would have a hammer that has a density of 2.428 g/cm3.  If it is a platinum hammer, then you get a density of 4.45. 

However, those density values will be misleading as they are the average density of the material. 
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This is a useful feature..and this is DF.. so im gonna assume its bugged
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otherdwarf

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #371 on: December 12, 2010, 05:57:40 am »

@Xenos

Well, ordinarily yes. But due to the rather special properties of adamantine, namely indestructability, complete inflexibility, negligible weight, and extreme rarity I consider the standard way of construction things out of adamantine to be wrapping it around a frame and then applying "dwarven magic" to harden it. Which would give these properties if instead of a ordinary frame you used a solid lead weight.
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Xenos

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #372 on: December 12, 2010, 12:25:37 pm »

@Xenos

Well, ordinarily yes. But due to the rather special properties of adamantine, namely indestructability, complete inflexibility, negligible weight, and extreme rarity I consider the standard way of construction things out of adamantine to be wrapping it around a frame and then applying "dwarven magic" to harden it. Which would give these properties if instead of a ordinary frame you used a solid lead weight.
Adamantine is not indestructable, or entirely inflexible.  It is just VERY resistant to being changed.
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This is a useful feature..and this is DF.. so im gonna assume its bugged
That's what cages and minecart shotguns are for!  We don't need to control them.  We just need to aim them.
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thijser

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #373 on: December 12, 2010, 12:31:24 pm »

Could we maybe upload some of these tests to the wiki?
http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Military_testing
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Camden1990

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Re: Weapon research
« Reply #374 on: December 12, 2010, 02:45:26 pm »

@Xenos
Actually, seeing as Adamantine has a yield strength in any direction of 5,000,000,000Pa, and has zero strain at its yield point, it in fact never deforms, it would simply shatter or crack as soon as more than 5GPa of pressure is applied. So it is entirely inflexible, but not indestructible.
So basically, covering a lead war hammer with adamantine would retain the properties of adamantine on the outside, with the weight of lead. What would be the deciding factor is the thickness of the adamantine. 8)

I don't often get a chance to apply my degree to DF, thanks! (I study Materials Science at university)

The carbon nanotubes that are theoretically possible to make a space elevator out of arent as strong as adamantine... so I think I know what the first thing I am making is as soon as moving machinery comes out.
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