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[Urist McDepravity]

AFAIK glass trap components already have been tested and found to be ineffective

Yeah, seems they are both too light to blunt or chop, and not enough sharp to cut.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The spinning menacing green glass spike strikes The Giant Rat in the lower body, bruising the muscle and shattering the lower spine's bone!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the right front leg, bruising the skin!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the right rear leg, bruising the muscle!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the right front leg, bruising the bone!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the upper body, bruising the muscle and bruising the left lung!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the right rear leg, bruising the muscle!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the upper body, bruising the fat!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the right front paw, bruising the bone!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the right rear leg, bruising the muscle!
The spinning menacing green glass spike strikes The Giant Rat in the upper body, bruising the fat!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the head, bruising the muscle, bruising the skull!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the upper body, bruising the skin!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the right rear leg, bruising the skin!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the tail, bruising the bone!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the lower body, bruising the fat!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the left rear leg, bruising the muscle!
The spinning menacing green glass spike strikes The Giant Rat in the lower body, bruising the muscle and bruising the guts!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the right rear paw, bruising the bone!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the head, bruising the muscle!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the left rear leg, bruising the skin!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the left front leg, bruising the fat!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the upper body, bruising the muscle and bruising the right lung!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the right front leg, bruising the muscle!
The Giant Rat gives in to pain.
The Giant Rat falls over.
The Giant Rat regains consciousness.
The Giant Rat stands up.
The Giant Rat is no longer stunned.
The spinning menacing green glass spike strikes The Giant Rat in the left front paw, bruising the muscle!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the lower body, bruising the muscle and bruising the guts!
The Giant Rat looks sick!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the left front leg, bruising the muscle!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the right rear leg, bruising the muscle!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the right rear paw, bruising the muscle!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the lower body, bruising the muscle and bruising the stomach!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the left front leg, bruising the muscle!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the lower body, bruising the fat!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the right rear paw, bruising the bone!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the right front leg, bruising the muscle!
The spinning menacing green glass spike strikes The Giant Rat in the upper body, bruising the muscle and shattering the upper spine's bone!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the left rear leg, bruising the bone!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the right rear leg, bruising the muscle!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the left front leg, bruising the muscle!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the upper body, bruising the fat!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the left front leg, bruising the muscle!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the right front leg, bruising the muscle!
The spinning menacing green glass spike strikes The Giant Rat in the right front leg, bruising the fat!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the left front leg, bruising the muscle!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the right rear leg, bruising the muscle!
The spinning large, serrated green glass disc strikes The Giant Rat in the upper body, bruising the fat!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the lower body, bruising the muscle and bruising the spleen!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the left front leg, bruising the bone!
The spinning spiked green glass ball strikes The Giant Rat in the right front paw, bruising the fat!
The Giant Rat vomits.

[Shinziril]

Looks like they'd make effective torture devices, though (rather like the theoretical silver whip traps from 40d, only even more painful and less lethal).

Experiment idea: make a 1x1 pit with a trap containing 10 no-quality spiked green glass balls at the bottom.  Drop an enemy into it and see if they ever actually die, or just end up permanently unconscious and crippled from various broken bones.

[Andeerz]

Question:  Is there ANY armor that protects the throat unmodded?  In my tests, I don't see any that do.  I could just be stupid though, but this might impact the results of the tests if overlooked.

Also, awesome thread.  However, a lot of the people here making claims about IRL performances of weapons are sometimes really really wrong and/or would benefit highly by citing sources... then again, I am also guilty of not citing sources sometimes.  Whatever.  That's not what this thread is about.

Oh!  And another thing which probably belongs in the "suggestions" forum or something: melee combat as a unit is different from dueling between individuals, and weapon designs had that in mind.  I imagine this might be planned, but reach and crowding and stuff should all be factored into combat in order to address this.  As it is, melee combat is more like a series of duels.  That's not to say the current system is pretty awesome, even with its flaws.

[Narmio]

Question:  Is there ANY armor that protects the throat unmodded?  In my tests, I don't see any that do.  I could just be stupid though, but this might impact the results of the tests if overlooked.

I don't believe so, although it's possible that the UBSTEP of a mailshirt includes the neck, I don't know.

However, I've never seen a throat actually fatally cut or torn out, only ever "cut open" and "bruised".  Which you'd think would be awfully serious injuries, arteries and windpipes and all, but they don't seem to be.

[Andeerz]

UBSTEP of a mailshirt doesn't include the neck, but if you increase it by one it does.  But then it also protects the face, ears, eyes, mouth, etc.  It's sorta weird.  The body model should be changed a bit.  Throat is primo target area IRL and a lot was done by armor smiths to protect it (maille standards, gorgets, bevors, ridges on the top of the breastplate, etc.).  Also, if a piece of armor is going to protect the face like a visor or mask or something in the future, there should be penalties to visibility perhaps.  In addition, plate neck protection like a bevor should hinder visibility as well, but not as much as a visor.

[Dwarf]

Consider that historic maille was often of the round-built, integrated-coif style. Face etc. protection becomes quite possible then.

[zagibu]

Question:  Is there ANY armor that protects the throat unmodded?  In my tests, I don't see any that do.  I could just be stupid though, but this might impact the results of the tests if overlooked.

I don't believe so, although it's possible that the UBSTEP of a mailshirt includes the neck, I don't know.

However, I've never seen a throat actually fatally cut or torn out, only ever "cut open" and "bruised".  Which you'd think would be awfully serious injuries, arteries and windpipes and all, but they don't seem to be.

Actually, throats get "torn apart" quite often, but you are right that it doesn't seem to affect the victims much. And no, there is nothing currently that protects the throat or face. Masks are in the game, but even steel masks don't protect anything at all. I believe they are more of the fashionable kind.

[Andeerz]

Consider that historic maille was often of the round-built, integrated-coif style. Face etc. protection becomes quite possible then.

Good point!  Thanks for pointing that out.  I think I'll start putting UBSTEP:2 on my maille shirts now...

[Dwarf]

Spoiler: Pic (click to show/hide)

So you know what I mean.

As far as my limited knowledge goes, shirts were made in a t-shirt-like method whilst longer (knee-length) hauberks were made in this round fashion, which includes the coif.

[Andeerz]

Nice pic, dood.

Also!  The coif was sometimes separate.  And during later periods in Europe (14th century onward), the coif was abandoned and instead an integral maille drape was sewn or riveted onto the helm.  This was called an aventail (spelling can differ).  There are earlier than 14th century examples as well depending on region and stuff.  Whee!  Tech history = the win!

Also, some of them big ol' hauberks had integral mittens with leather gripping areas!

[Osmosis Jones]

Hey Zagibu, would you be willing to expand the testing range to include a few non-standard materials for the weapons/armour? I'm thinking maybe just those with more extreme densities (e.g platinum, aluminium, maybe slade)?

[Sean0931]

If we're going to get into realistic weapon balance, then swords (Except Cyan ones) would become more or less useless against higher level armour. There's a reason they were all but extinct in battlefield usage at the pinnacle of melee combat, the 16th century. Records of battles like Agincourt show that swords were at a tiny majority in actual combat, with the only notable sword user being King Henry himself, who apparently thought the sword was a regal weapon. Swords, especially those of the slicing variety (Falchions, scimitars and Katana belong to this category) were next to useless due to plate armours resistance to cutting.

The ultimate melee weapons were the Halberd and Pollaxe. Shields fell almost entirely out of use. Hammers and the aforementioned war picks (Which were very similar weapons) were common, but flanged maces were the far more commonly used one handed weapon, due to their greater flexibility and more or less equal penetration in comparison. Traditional axes were more or less replaced due to the greater versatility of other pole arms.

Morningstars and other flails were rarer than maces due to their unpredictability (Do  you want to be the one with the unreliable weapon?), but had possibly the greatest penetration ability of all, as well as being extremely scary and difficult to defend against.

However, against unarmoured opponents, like creatures, slicing weapons are by far the best. A knight dwarf might not perform as well in the role of a samurai dwarf, simply because, despite his superior armour, size and all round better weapons, his weapons aren't designed for killing unarmoured opponents. A Katana can pass through flesh and bone like it isn't there, making it ideal for quickly dispatching large numbers of enemies. A halberd can't, and isn't.

[zagibu]

Hey Zagibu, would you be willing to expand the testing range to include a few non-standard materials for the weapons/armour? I'm thinking maybe just those with more extreme densities (e.g platinum, aluminium, maybe slade)?

Yeah, I think that would be interesting. I'm probably going to do ranged weapons first, though. I also kind of lost my momentum, so it might take a while until those are all done.

[BurnedToast]

Question:  Is there ANY armor that protects the throat unmodded?  In my tests, I don't see any that do.  I could just be stupid though, but this might impact the results of the tests if overlooked.

Cloaks are the only thing I know of offhand. leather cloaks are not terribly protective though. Adamantine cloaks might fair better but you can't test them in the testing arena and I've never managed to test them in fortress mode yet.

[SirHoneyBadger]

If we're going to get into realistic weapon balance, then swords (Except Cyan ones) would become more or less useless against higher level armour. There's a reason they were all but extinct in battlefield usage at the pinnacle of melee combat, the 16th century. Records of battles like Agincourt show that swords were at a tiny majority in actual combat, with the only notable sword user being King Henry himself, who apparently thought the sword was a regal weapon. Swords, especially those of the slicing variety (Falchions, scimitars and Katana belong to this category) were next to useless due to plate armours resistance to cutting.

The ultimate melee weapons were the Halberd and Pollaxe. Shields fell almost entirely out of use. Hammers and the aforementioned war picks (Which were very similar weapons) were common, but flanged maces were the far more commonly used one handed weapon, due to their greater flexibility and more or less equal penetration in comparison. Traditional axes were more or less replaced due to the greater versatility of other pole arms.

Morningstars and other flails were rarer than maces due to their unpredictability (Do  you want to be the one with the unreliable weapon?), but had possibly the greatest penetration ability of all, as well as being extremely scary and difficult to defend against.

However, against unarmoured opponents, like creatures, slicing weapons are by far the best. A knight dwarf might not perform as well in the role of a samurai dwarf, simply because, despite his superior armour, size and all round better weapons, his weapons aren't designed for killing unarmoured opponents. A Katana can pass through flesh and bone like it isn't there, making it ideal for quickly dispatching large numbers of enemies. A halberd can't, and isn't.

Sorry, but this isn't accurate. By this point in time, the missle weapon--bows, crossbows, gunpowder weapons--were becoming more and more dominant, and pole weapons were more and more in use because of missle calvalry, the increasing obsolescence of knights, and advances in tactics, not because of the armour.

Once again from the top: Swords could, and did, penetrate even high quality plate. Even if you want to pretend that they didn't, such plate had gaps and weak points, which someone with enough skill could certainly pierce with a sword.

People fought duels in plate, after all. Duels were typically fought to atleast the point of first blood. Someone eventually won the duel. This even happened in tournaments, where tournament armour was worn--and tournament armour was even heavier and more resistant than battlefield armour. 

Polearms had reach, and required less skill to use, which is why swords were less common. Not because of the armour, but because it was a lot cheaper and easier to hand a bunch of peasants and half-trained levies polearms, than to spend years to decades, training knights--knights at that point becoming obsolete because of improvements in gunpowder and crossbow technologies.

If you really want to insist that swords can't penetrate steel, then please explain why there were any armour improvements after maille? Once you had steel maille, the theory should go, it should be impossible to cut through it with a sword, making the full chain suit impenetrable.

It wasn't, and neither was plate. Plate was better for a lot of reasons, but it certainly wasn't a "cloak of invulnerability".