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[Pathos]

I know everyone here hates elves and all, but could you please keep gay people out of this?

Dude, it's a test on elves, how are we meant to keep them out of it?

[Tarran]

ALL THE TEST ARE INCONCLUSIVE!

Why? ELVES DON'T USE METAL! THEY USE WOOD!

That may be true in fortress mode, but we are talking about fighting one on one on equal terms.

how is it equal if the 'tree fapping fagots' get 700 speed and dwarves get 900 or something speed? Someone test if the speed has anything to do with this?

It's fair, it can't be any fairer then if you made them have the exact same stats as dwarves.

'fair' means that no-one has any advantage in equipment or skills, not body.

so they win because they are 'one with nature>' Blasphemy! I will dunk you into a pool of magma! Where are your trees now! Ohhh there on fire now! Now I must make a fort on a elven village and pump magma out of the ground to teach you elfs a lesson on why rock beats tree in 'rock-tree-pickaxe'

So, you want war with the humans too, don't you? TO WAR THEN MUSHROOM HUGGERS!

Just kidding, next time think who I side with , I don't like elves either, but I don't hate them.

[Meanmelter]

ALL THE TEST ARE INCONCLUSIVE!

Why? ELVES DON'T USE METAL! THEY USE WOOD!

That may be true in fortress mode, but we are talking about fighting one on one on equal terms.

how is it equal if the 'tree fapping fagots' get 700 speed and dwarves get 900 or something speed? Someone test if the speed has anything to do with this?

It's fair, it can't be any fairer then if you made them have the exact same stats as dwarves.

'fair' means that no-one has any advantage in equipment or skills, not body.

so they win because they are 'one with nature>' Blasphemy! I will dunk you into a pool of magma! Where are your trees now! Ohhh there on fire now! Now I must make a fort on a elven village and pump magma out of the ground to teach you elfs a lesson on why rock beats tree in 'rock-tree-pickaxe'

So, you want war with the humans too, don't you? TO WAR THEN MUSHROOM HUGGERS!

Just kidding, next time think who I side with , I don't like elves either, but I don't hate them.

They won't accept my MUSHROOMS they say I am abusing trees...dude its a mushroom!

and the only thing good they give you in trade is a bear or something, if you are lucky...

[Trorbes]

These results aren't all that surprising, as dwarves are slower and relatively weaker than the other races.  Especially in a fight where the first strike is critical, anything that has an advantage in speed will likely win, meaning that in a completely fair fight they'll get their asses handed to them.  Of course, in the real (simulated) world elves have nothing but wooden weapons and gobbos iron or bronze, whereas dwarves will often have steel or adamantine equipment, as well as a home-field advantage and an assortment of traps.  Really, the dwarf's superiority lies not in his skills as a melee fighter, but in his cunning as a trap-designer.

[Tarran]

Err, let's stop the quote pyramid please.

And elves are just different, they think the same of us as we think of them.

We would all like them more if they helped against sieges, because they have done nothing really beneficial to us yet, if they did help, then we would call them good tree huggers, that's still an insult, but it also says they still do something that makes us happy.

And no, I'm not giving the elves any more than they deserve, they just need a chance to be better, then we should decide if like them, just like Cacame. He is an elf, but a good elf.

And I will burn you in magma you if you call me a tree hugger.

[forsaken1111]

In the fight between Elf1 and Dwarf1...

Elf1 was armed with a highwood spear and had no skills.

Dwarf1 was armed with a steel battleaxe and had no skills.

Both combatants were unarmored.

Elf1 began the fight well, charging and stabbing Dwarf1 in the foot. He then jabbed Dwarf1 in the upper leg and spent the next few minutes twisting the spear around in the wound. Then Dwarf1 struck back, hacking Elf1's lower leg and severing a sensory nerve. Then follows about 3 pages of the elf stabbing the dwarf over and over in the belly and twisting his guts around. The Dwarf never got another hit in on the elf.

Then the elf bled to death. The dwarf has red wounds all over, is pale and nauseous and exhausted and winded.

Win: Dwarves..?

Update: He suffocated shortly afterwards.

[Geti]

Tarran wins on technicality, Meanmelter's poor sentence structure and grammar has let him down.

In other news, Dwarves need to have tougher (read, more resistant/damage dampening, I haven't looked at the raws enough to know what to change off the top of my head yet) tissues than both humans and elves to put back what they used to have in the form of DAMBLOCK. Extra toughness only helps them deal with pain more, they still get size and agility nerfs.

@forsaken: just goes to show how necessary training is.

[cowofdoom78963]

Really, the dwarf's superiority lies not in his skills as a melee fighter, but in his cunning as a trap-designer.

This.

[Tarran]

Well, either way, if someone gets even slightly wounded and will die of infection or bleeding to death even though he killed the other, he still lost, since he will die, if he gets saved then he wins, so it's a matter if he survives, not how long he survived.

[twichyboy]

Very strange i just did a match of 100 something dwarves with greataxes vs like 120-40 elves also greataxes everyone grandmasters and the dwarves won despite being outnumbered and were left with around 20 alive

[Tarran]

That's because of chaos, multiple elves/dwarves ganging up leads to unfair fighting, because dwarves can last longer, hitting first no longer gives an advantage when there are 99 more ready to chop your head off.

So, fighting in groups is no longer fair, since everyone fights randomly, like, say, 20 dwarves against 7 elves, that's not fair is it? (separated from the main fighting)

If you want a fair fight, make sure that it is always 1v1 so the balance doesn't tip, slip, and fall everywhere.

[Paul]

If you want dwarves to have tougher skin all you would have to do is go into their entry in creature_standard and add [SELECT_MATERIAL:SKIN], then put modifiers to the yields below it to adjust it to be a bit stronger than the default skin material. The defaults are 10000 for most and 20000 for shear.

Just for fun, heres an example of modifying the skin to be 10% stronger:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[SELECT_MATERIAL:SKIN]
    [IMPACT_YIELD:11000]
    [COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:11000]
    [TENSILE_YIELD:11000]
    [TORSION_YIELD:11000]
    [SHEAR_YIELD:22000]
    [BENDING_YIELD:11000]

Putting that in the dwarf entry of creature_standard gives you tougher skinned dwarves. It gives them a decided advantage with wrestling, and surprisingly helps a bit with iron battle axes too. Before the change the elves were almost always winning, after the change the dwarves were winning slightly more than the elves (in my tests it was 12/20).

If you wanted to make super dwarves you could set it to a really high number, like 5000000 (value of adamantine). That makes them nigh invincible. They'll still get broken fingers and stuff since other tissues (muscle, bone, etc) are normal, but it makes their skin immune to damage. Its funny, steel axes and they just get bruises and broken fingers and such.

[Deon]

Meh, how sad, such an unprofessional thread.

You can't make decisions based on 5 tests.

You should run 1000 or 10000 tests to get mediocre results. And still statistics fail.

[Raz]

This basically shows that strength is not (yet?) worked out as well as it should be. Axes should be relatively heavy when compared to a sword. The preparation for a swing, and recovery after one is a lot longer, and should take less time if the wielder is stronger. As far as I know, this is not modeled in the game.

Furthermore, the fact that you can pick up, carry without any loss of speed, and swing corpses of a multitude of sizes shows that this will need much work.

[dreiche2]

Meh, how sad, such an unprofessional thread.

You can't make decisions based on 5 tests.

You should run 1000 or 10000 tests to get mediocre results. And still statistics fail.

No. I count 16 wins out of 21 on the first page of this thread. This means that the null hypothesis that elves and dwarves have an equal chance of winning can be rejected at a significance level of 1.4% (i.e. the probability of having elves win that often or more is only 1.4% if the chances were to be equal. Scientific studies often use a significance level of 5%).

See also this example on coin flipping.

If you want to estimate the actual probability of an elf winning, you'll likely need more samples, but for example, for n=100 and k wins, you can be 95% confident that the probability of winning is within a +- 10% interval of k/n.