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Author Topic: Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?  (Read 7977 times)

Huggz

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Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?
« on: April 05, 2010, 10:08:06 am »

I have been testing the effects of the Fighter skill in arena mode, and have come up with some weird results. I did 2 1v1 wrestler fights, one grandmaster wrestler and one grandmaster wrestler AND fighter. Then I did 5v5 with 5 of each of the above. Then I did the same with swords, one grandmaster swordsmen, one the same with grandmaster fighting as well, and bronze swords all around. This test I did twice. EVERY SINGLE TIME I tried EVERY SINGLE TEST, the ones with grandmaster fighter LOST! What gives?
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Murphy

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Re: Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2010, 10:24:59 am »

Check what they did during battle. Maybe having fighter skill triggers some inferior tactics.
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skaltum

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Re: Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2010, 10:53:46 am »

what type of sword. theres 3 types. and it could of been on the pinicle of the creatures stats.

fighter seems to improve the accuracy of blows and attack speed.
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Huggz

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Re: Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2010, 12:25:57 pm »

Happened every time I tested, bronze short swords, IDK what happened. Try it yourselves if you dont believe me...
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Frumple

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Re: Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 01:52:06 pm »

Some numbers. Not particularly rigorous, but W and L are on awkward places on the keyboard to keep hitting to make the little rooms. Probably should just edit the arena layout, but whatever. Obviously, certain factors (Weapon material, room size, lack of armor, and species choice being primus) are going to influence things above and beyond the skills, so take it as you will.

And draw your own conjectures, 'cause while fighter doesn't seem to be making a terribly large difference in most cases, I can't really tell folks what's causing it when the skill does matter. Someone else can go in and do 50 sets of 10 1v1 matches, carefully noting down cause of death and primary organ/bone damage causes, heh.

A set of 7 1v1 amphibian men matches, both sides being GM in the same skill, and one side being GM fighter in addition. Battle occurs in a single 1x2 room created by lava cooling. All weapons Iron. Victor results:

Key: F = Fighter, NF = Not Fighter

Wrestling: 5F vs 2NF
Axes (Battle Axe): 2F vs 5NF
Swords (Long Sword): 1F vs 6NF
Knives (Large Dagger): 1F vs 6NF
Maces (Mace): 4F vs 3NF
Hammers (War Hammer): 3F vs 4NF
Spears (Spear):4F vs 3NF
Pikes (Pike):5F vs 3NF
Lasher (Scourge): 4F vs 3NF

===

Just for fun, a single 10v10 battle each, same skill setup, with victor and survivor numbers noted.
Wrestling: Whoops. 7F
Axes (Battle Axe): 4NF
Swords (Long Sword): 5NF
Knives (Large Dagger): 4F
Maces (Mace): 3F
Hammers (War Hammer): 10NF {+FLAWLESS VICTORY+}
Spears (Spear): 2NF
Pikes (Pike): 5F
Lasher (Scourge): 6NF

==
Incidentally, in a forgetful moment, I had one set of GM knives go in wielding long swords; in that case, the winner was the fighters with 9 survivors. Hmm.

As a final note, let it be known that three hundred and forty six amphibian men of varying genders died to produce these numbers. Let us laugh at their passing.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 02:28:17 pm by Frumple »
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Dave Mongoose

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Re: Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 04:55:01 pm »

You need more tests to actually prove the fighter skill makes a character weaker, especially considering how random combat is. It does show that the fighter skill doesn't give a big advantage, though...

What about testing combat between a character with no combat skills and one with only fighter? Since fighter is a general skill, maybe it helps with weapons you've not trained in?
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creidieki

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Re: Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2010, 05:38:52 pm »

Were all of your tests done in the 1x2 room?  Is that a room that only contains two tiles total?

Maybe the Fighters are spending their time trying to dodge out of the way or tactically reposition themselves or something?  Do you get the same kind of results in an open space?
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JoRo

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Re: Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 06:45:05 pm »

Man, I tried some things and got random as hell results.  In 16 1x2 rooms, 10 2x2 rooms, and 8 3x3 rooms, on elf with no equip or skills vs. one with no equip and Grand Master fighter:

1x2: 8 NF vs. 8 F
2x2: 1 NF vs. 9 F
3x3: 4 NF cs. 4 F

So I guess fighter doesn't matter... unless you're in a 2x2 room.  Skill gains from the battles are all over the map.  Some non-fighters are now legendary wrestlers, and one fighter didn't get any of his skills above novice.

Resetting, trying with weapons now, no-skill wrestlers take forever to resolve (though the 3x3 rooms seemed to finish first, but that could just be because there were half as many of them).

Edit:  Whoa, there's a result.  Same skill set-up, but now everyone has a steel longsword.

1x2: 1 NF vs. 14 F (one NF got spawned in a wall and then ganged up on, so those two Fs don't count)
2x2: 0 NF vs. 10 F
3x3: 0 NF vs. 8 F

A quick glance at the reports, it looks like fighter makes you more likely to avoid attacks and more likely to hit with your own attacks, which has a big impact when each strike opens an artery or severs a limb.  Most of the victorious fighters don't have a scratch on them, while the one living non-fighter is pretty banged up.

Here's the set up for the rooms, just paste it over the z=0 level in arena.txt if you're interested:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 07:05:46 pm by JoRo »
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Huggz

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Re: Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2010, 07:00:03 pm »

No Combat Skills (NCS) vs Fighter Only (FO), both unarmed, in 2x1 room:

15 wins to FO
5 win to NCS

So in this case, Fighter DOES help.

NCS vs Fighter Only, both with shortswords, in 2x1 room:

18 wins to FO
2 wins to NCS

So clearly with no other skills, Fighter does help. Now to test with weapon-specific skills as well.

Weapon Skill Only (WSO) vs Fighter And Weapon Skill (FAWS), both unarmed, in 2x1 room:

10 wins to FAWS
10 wins to WSO

Weapon Skill Only vs Fighter And Weapon Skill, both with copper swords, in 2x1 room:

8 wins to FAWS
12 wins to WSO

Now to test in 6x6 arenas:

Weapon Skill Only vs Fighter And Weapon Skill, both with copper swords, in 6x6 room:

1 win to FAWS
4 wins to WSO

Now a 10v10 with FAWS vs WSO:

WSO wins, with 6 survivors.

And finally, a 100v100:

WSO won, with 44 survivors.

So it appears that Fighting skill helps without any weapon skill, and provides somewhere between no benefit and a negative effect when weapon skill is present. Moreover, in large, open battles it provides a huge negative effect.
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Huggz

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Re: Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2010, 07:07:21 pm »

Another test, 100v100 with copper whips results in a massive 85 still alive for the lashers only and all the lasher/fighters dead.
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JoRo

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Re: Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2010, 07:15:32 pm »

Do arena creatures have any stat gain from assigned skills?  Maybe the non-fighters win because the fighting skill levels up pretty rapidly, so they see easy stat increases while the creatures who already have GM fighting have to work a lot harder for the same stat gain.
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Huggz

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Re: Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2010, 07:47:43 pm »

Do arena creatures have any stat gain from assigned skills?  Maybe the non-fighters win because the fighting skill levels up pretty rapidly, so they see easy stat increases while the creatures who already have GM fighting have to work a lot harder for the same stat gain.

Tested by pitting GM Swordsdwarves against GM in Swords, Axes, Knives, Bows, Crossbows and Hammers, everyone with copper short swords. The multiskilled ones won hands down every time. Good theory but the solution isnt that simple, it seems...
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FlamingCow

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Re: Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2010, 05:45:06 am »

I haven't done any experimentation of my own, but I would guess (by reading over these) that the "Fighter" skill levels up passively when other weapon/armour skills do and make it easier to learn new weapon skills by increasing the hit % (Which is when they skill up, right?) even if they don't have any skill in the weapon before hand. It's a kind of intuition skill, I would hypothesise.
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Max White

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Re: Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2010, 06:32:40 am »

There is a reason for this!
Fighter improves speed, HOWEVER there is no maximum speed for counter attacks, just as fast as they take hits. Something with other grand master stats will counter most attacks, so instead of the majority of damage being done by primary attacks, it is done by counters. Because of this, the one who does more primary attacks, get more counters in return, and basicaly kill  themselves.

Try with no other skills but fighter vs non-fighter, and fighter should win.

Duke 2.0

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Re: Fighter Skill - Negative Effect?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2010, 07:06:37 am »

 So if counterattacks are to blame, then tests vs. animals and monsters should show fighters having a higher survival rate vs. beasts than simple weapon skill users.
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