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[Rumrusher]

The thing in DF is that everyone can be a shade of good/neutral/evil because they're not defined as such.
There's no [GOOD] token in creature_standard for the playable species (human, dwarf, elf), only some creatures have one (unicorn, fairy, etc..) .

But there are creatures for which it's not true, like Goblins are the one with an alignment token, and it's [EVIL] , like Trolls, Ogres, Nightwings etc.. and so shouldn't be able to be good/neutral/shade of them.

If Toady wanted to go away with creatures that are true evil in their nature, he would not have included that [EVIL] token in the creature definition, only in the entities (so only specific civs , not specific individuals would be true evil)

But the danger of doing that is that unless Toady seriously improve a lot how you recognize people and their factions and the reactions of them toward you (instead of current "everyone is mostly passive to you" that i think is a real bug instead of a design choice considering how uneventful it makes the game half of the time), it's only going to make adventure mode even more of a mess than it is in df2014.

Already in current version, despite the existence of [EVIL] for goblins, you can have an army made of goblins and humans fighting a human town made of goblins and humans belonging to the same civ as you, while... none on both side (even the army not belonging to your own civ) being hostile to you.

wait a minute what if Evil token there for goblins to spawn in the Evil region? the good token are not on dwarves and only on the creatures that have the good token are unicorns who only spawn in the good region?
I remember back in 40d that you could recruit goblins and dwarves and go on a massive journey to piss off elves so. I for one like the idea of goblin, human elf, dwarfs working in harmony gives those who have the world peace dream a chance of achieving their goals.

[Robsoie]

It's possible, though in this case the wiki is wrong as the wiki mention

Creature is considered evil and will only show up in evil biomes. Civilizations with USE_EVIL_ANIMALS can domesticate them regardless of exotic status. Has no effect on cavern creatures.

So maybe what i put in bold is currently not working ingame and only the "will only show up in evil biomes" is actually working.
Could explain all those goblins overly friendly to you for no reason, unless it's just the concept of being evil that is not working at all in current version

[pisskop]

Goblins are fucked up.

I mean, looking at the dark fortresses now.  Fucked.  Up.

Whatever the justification for their actions, as a member of our irl society I cant condone their actions, and as 'members of non-'evil' civilizations' you can't* reconcile with them immediately.  Maybe one day Toady will allow that degree of complexity in the civilization-level worldgen interactions, but until then I guess the subjugated are either conformed or eradicated.  No assimilation time.  Those dwarves are sellouts and if your adventurer is so inclined deserve the punishment for treason.

[Rumrusher]

Man DF lore kinda weird given that demons shoot up giant pillars of slade in goblin homes and get help by Gods of human or dwarven religions
so on a religion Idea goblins are chosen ones who have a right to rule over DF with an iron boot(until toady figures out how to simulate battles in second world gen) then there's the whole proof of angels of said gods protecting demon's slabs.  then again kinda glad Evil token doesn't auto hostile folks and just a site placement like the Good token which kinda has no use, no good has ever came from unicorns.

in being Evil adventurer news: Currently playing a minotaur who kinda auto scares people so much that walking into a keep causes everyone to be auto hostile with him.
though it makes for good practice with getting folks to yield and robbing them. though as a minotaur I wonder what good use is there for pouches. Catching attacks then looking them dead in the eye is great. kinda wonder if the more rampage you do the better chances of scaring folks into your doing, that said My minotaur can't seem to keep a companion. I guess it's due to the minotaur constantly making comments about grinding bones into bread or something.

edit: okay so now a worm demon sprang out of nowhere and now I'm stuck in a fist fight with it. it keeps lighting me on fire and no one willingly going to assist me.

[Bumber]

kinda wonder what did this goblin group do to win the hearts of that town, or was the mayor that awful that the citizens are glad to be under goblin rule.

Maybe goblins don't make mandates. The dwarves had never imagined life without the constant terror being drawn for The Lottery when they inevitably failed to appease the random craft god.

[Robsoie]

On the raws for the goblins

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

   [PERSONALITY:ANGER_PROPENSITY:25:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:HATE_PROPENSITY:25:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:VIOLENT:25:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:IMMODERATION:50:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:EXCITEMENT_SEEKING:0:60:100]
   [PERSONALITY:CHEER_PROPENSITY:0:40:90]
   [PERSONALITY:ALTRUISM:0:25:50]
   [PERSONALITY:IMMODESTY:10:60:100]
   [PERSONALITY:CRUELTY:50:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:SWAYED_BY_EMOTIONS:0:25:50]
   [PERSONALITY:TOLERANT:50:75:100]

Is that very surprising entry :

   [PERSONALITY:TOLERANT:50:75:100]

while they have a personality that makes them hate everything

   [PERSONALITY:HATE_PROPENSITY:25:75:100]

So Goblins are basically growing to hate everyone and in the same time are tolerating everyone and accepting of them.

"i accept you guys, you're welcome in my lands, but i hate you, i really really hate you, and you know it can only end well, because on top of that i'm true evil"

Now wonder everyone in those DF worlds are so confused by everything

[pisskop]

On the raws for the goblins

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

   [PERSONALITY:ANGER_PROPENSITY:25:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:HATE_PROPENSITY:25:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:VIOLENT:25:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:IMMODERATION:50:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:EXCITEMENT_SEEKING:0:60:100]
   [PERSONALITY:CHEER_PROPENSITY:0:40:90]
   [PERSONALITY:ALTRUISM:0:25:50]
   [PERSONALITY:IMMODESTY:10:60:100]
   [PERSONALITY:CRUELTY:50:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:SWAYED_BY_EMOTIONS:0:25:50]
   [PERSONALITY:TOLERANT:50:75:100]

Is that very surprising entry :

   [PERSONALITY:TOLERANT:50:75:100]

while they have a personality that makes them hate everything

   [PERSONALITY:HATE_PROPENSITY:25:75:100]

So Goblins are basically growing to hate everyone and in the same time are tolerating everyone and accepting of them.

"i accept you guys, you're welcome in my lands, but i hate you, i really really hate you, and you know it can only end well, because on top of that i'm true evil"

Now wonder everyone in those DF worlds are so confused by everything

I view it as 'tolerate of anything, but violent towards the weak.

A strong force may bind the goblins to them, and they accept all manner of perversion, but if that force should weaken they will crush it as inferior and weak.  Anarchists in the extreme.  With immortality they have limited self control or long term awareness and are involved in the moment, seeking extremes of sensation.  Its why the lock up children, why they throw corpses down shafts in front of children, why they force the children to handle giant trolls.  They are tolerant of all that can bind them.

Their solemnity is one which freely oppresses the weak, where the momentarily strong reign.

Its often stronger immortal forces that guide them for their own ends, and the goblins accept that with tolerance.  Its not a tolerance for the sake ideal, unlike our society.  Its a tolerance towards their own condition.  They are willing pawns by their nature.

[smjjames]

I made them mortal (save lifespan as dwarves) in my game to reduce the population that the dark towers get.

[Robsoie]

I decided to toy with the raws

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

- [NOFEAR] to everyone in creature_standard.txt to avoid everyone running away in fear from my party
- removal of [BENIGN] for who had it to try to avoid passivity in front of enemy problem
- Goblins and Elves life span = Dwarves life span (trying to avoid one overwhelming the worldgen after a while)
- Trolls same life span as Humans (too many trolls in goblin sites)
And as a test [CRAZED] for everyone to try to make those that are still passive to become much more active.

and keep the entity_default.txt with its default values to see how CRAZED would behave for mixed-specie towns.

I got a bandit in town situation and it became a bloodbath very quickly, one of my 3 party member was dead, a civilian that was close (a cheese maker) ran to help us and was killed and we managed to kill the bandits.
The NOFEAR worked really great, same feeling of battle to the death as in 34.11 instead of nearly everyone running away out of a couple of enemies.
I sure was happy to get a lot of iron armor parts, i got a lot of "deflected" while my character should be dead.
I think the CRAZED token helped to make enemies being actually hostile instead of passive.

I traveled to a dwarven hamlet to see if the CRAZED token wouldn't make the dwarf attacking me on sight, but the hamlet had a lot of goblins population and they attack my party as soon as i showed up, but those were no civilians, goblins axemen and spearmen, there was a human named "commander" so i guess this was a bandit troop .
The human didn't attacked me, probably a side effect of CRAZED unfortunately , very bad.

But very strange, not a single dwarf in any of the mounds.

Anyways, i went to another hillock, this time there were dwarves, they weren't moving, good .
I went their way and ... they rushed at me to try to kill my group, crazy civilians ther.
Hmm, unfortunately the CRAZED is indeed a bit too crazed for what i wanted to see

So i'll have to do with the NOFEAR only, makes the battle more fun when everyone is not running away after a couple of turns.
No modification to the entity_default.txt , so result should be interesting for mixed species populations in regards to the [CRAZED] token

[Robsoie]

As there was a necromancer tower nearby, i decided to pay a visit.

Using the trick i learned on this board to fight undead (use Multi-attack, 1st bash, 2nd dodge away) , i managed to deal half a dozen of warhammer bash to an undead, unfortunately i wasn't lucky and i was fighting an undead that know how to parry with a pick, as he blocked a dozen of my bashing.

As he didn't gave any sign of being pulped, and because i noticed there was undead starting to come in numbers :


I decided to sprint away, and i was lucky those weren't fast undead, as i got away, on the world map i see the groups that were following me :


Interesting, the "multi-attack" combat tactic is working nice (usually my characters even stronger that stood their ground vs undead are always destroyed quickly) , the only bad is that i'm at the beginning of an adventure so my hammer + fighter skills aren't yet very high (skilled both only) , i"ll have to come back once they'll be higher to see if it helps pulping undead faster (and avoid so many "pick" parrying from them)

[smjjames]

You'll have another problem in that the undead will respawn at the tower, at least I'm pretty sure they respawn.

[Robsoie]

Damn, i was hoping to drag them out of the tower and pulp them to get access inside.
Already had given up dark fortress and dark pits exploration due to unplayable lag mixed with the respawn there too

Looks like i'll have to wait when Toady will have all those respawns annoyances fixed before exploring again.

[Bumber]

Its why the lock up children, why they throw corpses down shafts in front of children, why they force the children to handle giant trolls.

It occurs to me that the goblins now have their own child care program. It is only a matter of time until they discover danger rooms.

Perhaps they're not so dissimilar from Bay12ers.

[Rumrusher]

[nofear] Will cause bogeymen to not fight you. So if you're the type that craves for any conflict or left bogeymen on.
just for anyone wanting to follow robsoie footsteps.
that said Robsoie might want is to try 40.xx OldGenesis mod.
because god damn that mod has loads of hostile creatures that can't talk thus can't communicate and auto hostile.
also toby slap discipline on most of all creatures so they don't normally run away unless you really hammer in the hopelessness of their fight.
my current adventurer is a minotaur who crafted a backpack out of a demon who pop up out of nowhere one night.
migrants might end up being some weird armored suit or some beast. though I take to heart to avoid murdering civ races since some how they hold funerals of those who died and mourn the lost, though I guess you could grab some bandits and take them to a megabeast to become meatshield.
then again I'm playing an evil character so pillage and (successfully)robbing folks till I figure out a good place to stick the loot.

[Robsoie]

My experiments aren't about making everyone hostile to everyone, but  about :

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1 - making enemy factions being hostile to each other, unlike what is currently happening in which hostility nearly never happens and murderers stand next to their victims relatives that witnessed the murder without a problem.
2 - battles being battles, not after only a couple of turns even the most bloodthirsty opponents running away in terror like it happens nearly everytime now.
3 - bandits not being best friends to everyone , even to you when you're tasked with destroying them, it breaks so much of the atmosphere when your lord/lady tell you about bandits harrassing your town, and after you kill them he will spit at your face telling you're a murderer and he hates you.
4 - true evil creature not being best friends "long live the cause" with their numerous time targets and victims.

1 - i have not made yet extended test, but i think the solutio could be to change the [ETHIC:KILL_ENEMY:ACCEPTABLE] into [ETHIC:KILL_ENEMY:REQUIRED] , in the raws only the goblins/kobolods/cavepeople entities have it to required , maybe it's having it to acceptable that does not make enemies being enemies.

2 - NOFEAR helped to get battles being closer to actual battles like in 34.11 instead of the running away contest they are in 40.x, but unfortunately it's too extreme as while blodthirsty warriors may not run away from battles, one would expect civilians to do so after they get wounded, unfortunately NOFEAR does not allow that, i had read about the Discipline skill , but similarly to NOFEAR it would affects both civilians and warriors the same, so high discipline would lead civilians to react to war differently than warriors. Would be the solution if it was possible to assign in the raw a different discipline/nofear to civilians job and warrior job

3 - for this one i hoped CRAZED would help, but it was too much, as that token is basically "specism" , it make everyone from a specie hostile to anyone from another specie, regardless of them being bandit or of neutral civs, and for when bandits are of the same specie of bandits hunters , they just don't fight, so can't find a good solution to make it like in 34.11 there

4 - for this , i think the best way is to remove the TOLERATES_SITE and LIKES_SITE that target non-evil entities from true evil entities in the entity_default.txt, so their members will not go to live there as if the game was all about "we murder you but we're happy friends" in sites that are populated by their targets and victims, so no of those [EVIL] Goblins going to tell you "long live the cause" when you're a dwarf in a dwarf hamlet.
Another good side of it is that it fixes a bit of the lack of civ/entity belonging recognition (by example when in a human town you have a group of goblin bandit, and next to them a few goblins warriors serving the human lord, no way to tell which ones are the bandits and which ones are the town defenders) but unfortunately does not do much when bandits are human in a town with human warriors serving the town