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[Supermikhail]

In an attempt to flesh out the world for my writing project and to attract inspiration, I've started pondering the origins of the races in the world (which is based on DF).

So far I've thought only about elves, and got stuck a bit. Maybe I'll think about it some more (maybe not), but I've decided to share my thoughts with the forum.

The apes lived in a tropical forest, where the ground was covered by a layer of water, so they couldn't go down.

Sometimes, however, they fell down. One of the fallen ones managed to grab onto a liana (instead of getting eaten by a horrible underwater predator) and climb back up. Then, the friends of another fallen fellow hit upon throwing down a liana, and so he was saved. While he (of his relative) was down there, he found an plant unknown to him and took it (its fruit) up with him. The tribesmen tasted it and liked the taste. Then they thought of climbing down lianas themselves to get this and other fruits. Gradually, they learnt to tie lianas together for more convenient climbing.

Sometimes they had to migrate over moderate expances of water. Some of the tribesmen learnt ot hold onto treetrunks and swim over. The majority chose to jump from the trees on one side to the trees on the other. But old people couldn't jump this far, and the young ones learnt to tie tree branches with lianas, onto which the elder ones could hold. With time, the elven apes started to make more complicated bindings, all over the territory of their movement. Sometimes it resembled walks and stairs even.

But, in the end, they had to migrate, or the forest started dying, or there was a seismic event, so the elven apes swam on treetrunks over the water and to a land. The land was a vast desert, dotted with small groves or oasises. Being tree-dwellers as well as vegetarians, the elven apes rushed to the groves. Migration possibilities became limited and groups started claiming groves as their territories. And also getting a tan.

I can't think of a single reason for them to stay vegetarians in this harsh world. Although the respect for trees I've got nailed, I think.

[darkflagrance]

Why should they be vegetarians to start with? If they are based off DF elves, they definitely eat meat.

Perhaps they are biologically unsuited for meat?

[shadow_archmagi]

actually the thread title raises an interesting question

with a theoretically infinite lifespan, natural selection would be altered dramatically

[Grimlocke]

Makes you wonder what the evolutional advantage of pointy ears is.

Though the developement of multiple humanoid species on some earth-like world shouldnt be impossible. Had the neanderthalers not gone extinct then we would have had two ouselves!

I suppose dwarves would have evolved in some cold and somewhat inhospitable area? It would explain their short beardyness and their ability to live of mould.

The elves in some tropical area with little hositility in it. Maybe some island, real islands have given birth to some mighty silly creatures. Like those goats that keep passing out. It would also just slightly justify their infinite lifespan, as infinite lifespans would never evolve on a creature that dies from one thing or another within a few decades. Well they dont make sense even still, but its the only evolutionary justification I could think of.

Humans in areas where real humans came to exist (africa, not sure where exactelly). Plains, I guess.

Not sure about goblins... well im not so sure what exactelly the buggers look like in the first place. They are as short as dwarves, and skinny and immortal as elves. Dont know what to think of that.

Kobolds would have come to evolve in some secluded cavern. Then when they came out, they saw all the pretty things the other humanoids made and developed a culture of nicking them. Causing them to be unable to make them themselves.

[Caz]

Elves don't evolve. They were put here by Armok for the dwarves as an endless source of entertainment and tallow.

[tigrex]

Evolution would be ill suited to design an immortal creature.  The only way it could work is if the Proto-Elves selectively grew more reproductive as their age increased.  Thus, those that had finite lifespans would produce less offspring, which would in turn produce less offspring, until they constituted such a small percentage of the Elven species that it would make no difference.

I'm not so sure how much this theory holds water.  After all, even if a 600 year old elf has no problems with acting like an teenager, it seems that you'd never eliminate the finite-lifespan elves.  After all, they'd have more incentive to reproduce.

You'd also have problems in that infinte lifespan genes will be around forever, and so are not subjected to evolutionary forces.  So they'd be more vulnerable to diseases, among other things. 


Offhand, are there any genes that control stem cell production?  Because something like that could really extend lifespa, so an Elf who could do that would live forever.

[Supermikhail]

Nice idea, tigrex. I previously completely ruled out the infinite lifespan (at least in my world) as infavourable and implausible (who, after all, are some of the longest-living creatures in our world - turtles, and they aren't the most brilliant creatures, even after hundreds millions of years' evolution worth; and I needed my elves sentient!). But about the genes...

So, here is one of the current views on the age limit (which I picked up from wikipedia, and which I find very convincing):
No one dies just from old age. In humans, the main cause of death at old age is genetic diseases and "malfunctions". This is because, they aren't weeded out by natural selection. And this is because reproduction in humans happens earlier than the old age diseases show themselves and so they are transmitted to the next generation. And, unnoticed, become widespread.

So, suppose, something makes elves marry at older and older age... Hm...

Why should they be vegetarians to start with? If they are based off DF elves, they definitely eat meat.

Perhaps they are biologically unsuited for meat?

Good to know that DF elves eat meat (my assumption that they were vegetarians was based mostly on epithets they are given on this forum).

Makes you wonder what the evolutional advantage of pointy ears is.

Though the developement of multiple humanoid species on some earth-like world shouldnt be impossible. Had the neanderthalers not gone extinct then we would have had two ouselves!

I suppose dwarves would have evolved in some cold and somewhat inhospitable area? It would explain their short beardyness and their ability to live of mould.

The elves in some tropical area with little hositility in it. Maybe some island, real islands have given birth to some mighty silly creatures. Like those goats that keep passing out. It would also just slightly justify their infinite lifespan, as infinite lifespans would never evolve on a creature that dies from one thing or another within a few decades. Well they dont make sense even still, but its the only evolutionary justification I could think of.

Humans in areas where real humans came to exist (africa, not sure where exactelly). Plains, I guess.

Not sure about goblins... well im not so sure what exactelly the buggers look like in the first place. They are as short as dwarves, and skinny and immortal as elves. Dont know what to think of that.

Kobolds would have come to evolve in some secluded cavern. Then when they came out, they saw all the pretty things the other humanoids made and developed a culture of nicking them. Causing them to be unable to make them themselves.

Close to my thoughts, although I haven't gotten to goblins and kobolds yet... Ah, and I don't think that two sentient species on one planet are impossible. At the beginning, several human apes' species lived on earth together. The problem was, they lived close to each other and one overpowered others. I'm having my species evolve in drastically different environments, until they can reason with each other, at least as well as Europeans reasoned with American aborigines.
About their ears - that's also a problem. On Earth animals that have large pointy ears are usually carnivores and live in warm environments.

[Patarak]

actually the thread title raises an interesting question

with a theoretically infinite lifespan, natural selection would be altered dramatically

Actually, an immortal species would lead to mortality eventually anyways, and here's why.

Say you've got a species with an infinite lifespan. But they can still get killed by having an axe in their skull. What will happen then is that species will have an "effective lifespan" of however long it takes them to get killed, on average. This means that most of the species won't live beyond that point.

This means that nasty mutations that causes them to get fucked up after a time beyond that point tend to propogate within the genepool unchecked, because they don't live long enough to die from them anyway. So eventually on the occassion that a member of the species lives beyond their effective lifespan, the genetic diseases take hold.

And that is why your back aches.

[Rafal99]

The elves in some tropical area with little hositility in it. Maybe some island, real islands have given birth to some mighty silly creatures. Like those goats that keep passing out. It would also just slightly justify their infinite lifespan, as infinite lifespans would never evolve on a creature that dies from one thing or another within a few decades. Well they dont make sense even still, but its the only evolutionary justification I could think of.

As for elves I would think of tropical area with a LOT of hostility in it. Thats why they had to develop complex symbiosis with nature, and cooperation with others predators. (no wild animal attack elves in DF)
They also gained agility superior to other humanoids that also helps them with hunting and surviving in general. Look at Na'vi from Avatar for similarities.
As for longer lifespan, the ones whose bodies had better regeneration abilities could live longer and could gain more experience and skills because of that, which also was helping them survive. 

As for dwarves, obviously mountains!
They are short and have broad bodies and lots of hair, all of that helps them survive in cold areas (and mountains are always cold).
In some other thread someone suggested that their beards help them filter dust while they dig, and I think it is a good idea as well.


All of this also explains why civilizations in worldgen stay in their favorite biome and expand no further, elves stay in forests, dwarves in mountains etc. It is because evolution made them suitable only to these biomes and they have severe problems surviving anywhere else.
Only recently dwarves have advanced in technology, learned about above-ground farming, improved their mining techniques etc. This allowed them to settle in areas they couldn't before, like plains, forests, or even glaciers!
Their old mountainhomes were only in mountains, while now their brave expeditions reach almost every place in the world! Which sometimes doesn't make the local civilizations happy, and they try to find an excuse for an open war, bringing silly demands about tree cutting etc. Superior dwarven technology also let them built great constructions, not seen before, which sometimes make other civilations jealous, and cause even more problems to the poor dwarves...

DF world makes so much sense if you think about it. ;-)

[Supermikhail]

actually the thread title raises an interesting question

with a theoretically infinite lifespan, natural selection would be altered dramatically

Actually, an immortal species would lead to mortality eventually anyways, and here's why.

Say you've got a species with an infinite lifespan. But they can still get killed by having an axe in their skull. What will happen then is that species will have an "effective lifespan" of however long it takes them to get killed, on average. This means that most of the species won't live beyond that point.

This means that nasty mutations that causes them to get fucked up after a time beyond that point tend to propogate within the genepool unchecked, because they don't live long enough to die from them anyway. So eventually on the occassion that a member of the species lives beyond their effective lifespan, the genetic diseases take hold.

And that is why your back aches.

That's like saying that there is an infinite pool of genetic diseases in elven genome. Poor chaps.
Of course, as long as their reproduction stays sexual, there are going to be unfortunate accidents, but with later and later marriage, I think, the number of genetic diseases should reduce to almost zero.

In some other thread someone suggested that their beards help them filter dust while they dig, and I think it is a good idea as well.

This would require a beard made of completely different material than what humans have. Human beard is extremely good at collecting dust  , and dwarves would need to spend great amounts of time cleaning it, instead of working.

All of this also explains why civilizations in worldgen stay in their favorite biome and expand no further, elves stay in forests, dwarves in mountains etc. It is because evolution made them suitable only to these biomes and they have severe problems surviving anywhere else.
Only recently dwarves have advanced in technology, learned about above-ground farming, improved their mining techniques etc. This allowed them to settle in areas they couldn't before, like plains, forests, or even glaciers!
Their old mountainhomes were only in mountains, while now their brave expeditions reach almost every place in the world! Which sometimes doesn't make the local civilizations happy, and they try to find an excuse for an open war, bringing silly demands about tree cutting etc. Superior dwarven technology also let them built great constructions, not seen before, which sometimes make other civilations jealous, and cause even more problems to the poor dwarves...

That's quite natural, and is similar to our own world. I mean humans are naturally fit only for warm regions. But let's assume that the drive to expand and explore is natural for any sentient creature. So, dwarves and elves, and humans, and the rest are going to meet, and who knows how it's going to work out, but suppose they live side by side. Is there going to be a guy who writes a United States of DFia constitution, that declares all sentient species equal?
Aaah, that would be fun to explore. A shame Toady wouldn't include these thoughts into the game.

[Supermikhail]

Further thoughts:

So, elves are at least omnivores. And they end up in a desert. They've got harsh competition over oases, and have to rely more on fauna for food, as most plants around them are inedible. They have to develop good survival and hunting skills. And it takes time, so females start to favour older males. And, due to the lack of resources, there is a restriction on the number of births. So there is a competition between females over who is going to give births in the season. As with males, older females are more experienced in desert survival, and some kind of hierarchy is established, where there is a queen, who has a right for mating over other females. So, the mating age grows higher.

But still, this doesn't grant eternity, just you average human age... Have to speculate some more.

[TOMzors]

the main reason we grow old (i.e wrinkled and short) is due to the tendency of our DNA to "fail" at reproducing itself properly, creating errors in the code, so the daughter cells, RNA and proteins created from it will be corrupt or incomplete, and as we get older this gets worse causing all sorts of problems... Maybe it could be that elves don't suffer from such problems... after all it is theoretically possible to fix this in the human genome (it probably wouldn't stay this way and eventually revert back, probably with a vengeance... because it hates us...) causing us to not physically age, or maybe appear younger... but it is just a hypothesis.

just a suggestion really from a slightly biological point of view...

[Thorik]

Well in DF, gods are supposedly real and put everything on earth, there are many many species such as hybrids of men that resulted from furrys gettin' it on with rats and bats (wtf) I dont think DF gods really had that intention in mind... but Humans, Elves, Dwarves, created by the gods.  the other species are ****ed up.  Also, after just watching Avatar, I understand the demands elves make, I start an outpost in a wilderness region and start tearing up the forest and building a city... hehe.  But still, the elves must perish.

[Caesar]

but with later and later marriage, I think, the number of genetic diseases should reduce to almost zero.

You're making a mistake there.
Getting older doesn't harm the sperm of the male, as it's constantly renewed, but the woman's half is made even before birth, aging along with her. Which means every time she's exposed to even the slightest radiation or gene altering substance, there's a chance her eggs mutate. The result is older women will have mutated children, with actually more genetic diseases than children of younger mothers.

Aging really stinks for women.

[Supermikhail]

I didn't remember about it. Thanks.
So, elves just don't want to work for me.