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Author Topic: What happens when your economy is too efficient?  (Read 4008 times)

LeoLeonardoIII

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What happens when your economy is too efficient?
« on: February 17, 2010, 05:38:56 pm »

I had this thought the other day. What do you do when your society is so efficient that people can't get a job? I don't even know if this is a thing that economists have already thought through. I assume so. Anyone know what the big answers are?


And here's where my thesis comes in. Let's say you have a factory employing 100 people and no efficiency improvers (machines, methods, whatever). But when you add efficiency improvers, you fire a few workers because you can only sell so many pins. So eventually you can get your paid workforce down to 90, 70, 50 employees.

But since we're just looking at this factory, assuming that the same things are going on everywhere, if you fire 60 employees then those 60 employees can no longer afford to buy pins. You see a slight drop in every factory's sales, which means you fire an employee or two to make up for it. This isn't a slippery slope, because the market doesn't shrink that much, so it's not like you'll have to shut the place down.

The problem comes in when you get so efficient that you employ only 10 people. You now have 90% unemployment. In your society, to produce the goods and services used by 100% of the people, you only need 10% of the workforce (in this example).

So what do you do with the other 90% of your society? It's not that the economy just isn't good enough, it's that nobody wants to buy any more than what is already produced. You could create make-work jobs, but they would overproduce by 9x what your society needs.

The ultimate efficiency goal of industry is to hire one mechanic to run a factory full of machines rather than hire a factory full of humans. So what happens when we discover or invent methods of production that cut all the humans out of the loop? Who will that industrialist sell his pins to if 99% of people can't buy anything?

I think one answer is that your society needs to prioritize differently. Maybe it's okay to provide everyone with the basic human needs even if they don't work. But they need to actually work to get things like a comfortable place to live, really good clothes, eating out, personal electronics, a car, diversions like dancing classes. I think you wouldn't have everyone be a free rider - I'd certainly work to get the better lifestyle rather than live like a well-fed hobo.

This is a moot point right now because we have ways of getting rid of our excess wealth: people steal it and hoard it and there is a lot of waste.


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Sordid

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Re: What happens when your economy is too efficient?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 05:43:57 pm »

You're operating on the assumption that the only job one can get is making stuff. That is not so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_economy
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Cthulhu

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Re: What happens when your economy is too efficient?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2010, 05:48:34 pm »

Also, if 99-100% of the workforce is cut due to automation, I see no problem.  At that point haven't we progressed beyond the need for work?  The same amount of man-hours is being put into it, but the workers no longer need to be paid.  Couldn't we just exploit the machines and not worry about being unemployed?

People always whine about immigrants taking their jobs, but what if that immigrant didn't need to eat or sleep, and gave you his salary every week?  Would people still complain?
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: What happens when your economy is too efficient?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2010, 05:49:38 pm »

But there is still a saturation point beyond which you do not need any more services, and decline to buy more.

For example, now that people have such good Internet and access to movies and TV shows on sites like Hulu many are getting rid of their cable or satellite TV services. I know I haven't had cable TV for 4 years.

Furthermore, services are notoriously likely to flee to where the wages are lowest, meaning a service-based economy is volatile and weak compared to one based on manufactures. It may flush you with a lot of early income, but that income can be earned by anyone anywhere, once they tool up for it.
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: What happens when your economy is too efficient?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2010, 05:51:00 pm »

Quote from: Cthulhu
Also, if 99-100% of the workforce is cut due to automation, I see no problem.  At that point haven't we progressed beyond the need for work?  The same amount of man-hours is being put into it, but the workers no longer need to be paid.  Couldn't we just exploit the machines and not worry about being unemployed?

People always whine about immigrants taking their jobs, but what if that immigrant didn't need to eat or sleep, and gave you his salary every week?  Would people still complain?

Yes but we still have property ownership. Go ahead and lie back and not work, but unless society changes you'll be out in the rain and dying of hunger.

That was my point. Society would need to watch out for this and change when it happens.

EDIT: Specifically, you don't own a robot worker on the assembly line. The factory owner does. So you don't get to walk up with your hand out and ask for the wages "your" robot is earning. You no longer have any connection to any job.
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Sordid

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Re: What happens when your economy is too efficient?
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2010, 05:52:53 pm »

But there is still a saturation point beyond which you do not need any more services, and decline to buy more.

http://www.ted.com/talks/joseph_pine_on_what_consumers_want.html
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Cthulhu

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Re: What happens when your economy is too efficient?
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 05:54:01 pm »

But what if the factory owner is a robot?
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JoshuaFH

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Re: What happens when your economy is too efficient?
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2010, 05:55:00 pm »

Well, there is government to regulate these sorts of things. I suppose that if it became a problem, then the gov'ment could start taxing the hell out of high-efficiency industries so they don't cause widespread sociological harm.
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: What happens when your economy is too efficient?
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2010, 06:01:26 pm »

I'll watch the TED talk when I get home. I can has summary?

Quote from: JoshuaFH
Well, there is government to regulate these sorts of things. I suppose that if it became a problem, then the gov'ment could start taxing the hell out of high-efficiency industries so they don't cause widespread sociological harm.

Probably :/

Like if they added a 600% tax on sewing machines when they were invented, because the tailors' guilds were complaining they were too efficient.

I could totally see that. Obviously it's not ideal ...

Then again, what happens? The company becomes more efficient, fires people, but ends up even in money. People are still out of work, and there's no guarantee the government will help them out. So the tax has to be a whole lot more than the efficiency benefit to the company.
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JoshuaFH

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Re: What happens when your economy is too efficient?
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2010, 06:09:43 pm »

I'll watch the TED talk when I get home. I can has summary?

Quote from: JoshuaFH
Well, there is government to regulate these sorts of things. I suppose that if it became a problem, then the gov'ment could start taxing the hell out of high-efficiency industries so they don't cause widespread sociological harm.

Probably :/

Like if they added a 600% tax on sewing machines when they were invented, because the tailors' guilds were complaining they were too efficient.

I could totally see that. Obviously it's not ideal ...

Then again, what happens? The company becomes more efficient, fires people, but ends up even in money. People are still out of work, and there's no guarantee the government will help them out. So the tax has to be a whole lot more than the efficiency benefit to the company.

Even though the company is still at even, I would guess this would result in the government having a surplus of money due to the taxes. To offset the sudden unemployment, then the government could invest that money into either make-work jobs, or into education programs to teach the now unemployed tailors to become other forms of skilled labor.

And then we can build that space station on the Moon.
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Cthulhu

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Re: What happens when your economy is too efficient?
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2010, 06:22:27 pm »

Or the company would just leave.

I mean, honestly, you could stay here and be efficient but have ridiculous taxes, or you could go to some third world country where you can pay your workers pennies a day.  Efficiency and quality would go down, but I don't think that's a big enough incentive to stay here.
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: What happens when your economy is too efficient?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2010, 06:30:38 pm »

Quote from: Cthulhu
Or the company would just leave.

I mean, honestly, you could stay here and be efficient but have ridiculous taxes, or you could go to some third world country where you can pay your workers pennies a day.  Efficiency and quality would go down, but I don't think that's a big enough incentive to stay here.

I think maybe outsourcing doesn't count as an efficiency increaser - you're just taking advantage of a poorer economy someplace else. You're not getting more work done with the same number of humans, you're just changing which humans you employ.

But that's one excellent reason why the huge tax on efficiency wouldn't work. There's someplace in the world that would allow it or have a lower tax, and everyone would manufacture there. Suddenly you have the same efficiency-driven unemployment plus an import deficit and capital flight.
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Creaca

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Re: What happens when your economy is too efficient?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2010, 06:34:22 pm »

Robot Civil Rights movement. In a world where PETA is a name know in every Household, PETR is just around the corner.

And look, if you try and pronounce it, you get "Peter". Teehee.
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MrWiggles

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Re: What happens when your economy is too efficient?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2010, 06:40:10 pm »

When efficiency in society happen to reduce work force needed for an industry, those peepels never stay out of work, new industry become possible because of it. Just because we cant think of the new industry to employee these peeples in the future does not mean it wont happen.

When we settle into civilizations such as Ur or Cutalhuluk (I murder that name!), away from hunter gathers, less peeples were needed to gather foodstuffs. We say other industry propping up, such as art, pottery, police, acting and so on.

What is exactly stopping new industry from popping up in this thought experiments?
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: What happens when your economy is too efficient?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2010, 06:46:35 pm »

Quote from: MrWiggles
When efficiency in society happen to reduce work force needed for an industry, those peepels never stay out of work, new industry become possible because of it. Just because we cant think of the new industry to employee these peeples in the future does not mean it wont happen.

When we settle into civilizations such as Ur or Cutalhuluk (I murder that name!), away from hunter gathers, less peeples were needed to gather foodstuffs. We say other industry propping up, such as art, pottery, police, acting and so on.

What is exactly stopping new industry from popping up in this thought experiments?

You're right!

It's too bad we don't value artists, writers, actors, and musicians enough in our society. Mine anyway. It seems like the only ones who succeed (as in, able to lead a comfortable lifestyle) in these fields are the rare superheroes. I'd like to see the average professional musician be able to survive by creating good music. Right now it just doesn't work that way. You have to know people, and get lucky.

But you're right, there may be new industries that open up. We've seen that happen with the Internet. But the same efficiency tools that make other industries fire all their workers would probably apply to the new industries.

Admittedly there are some industries today that don't benefit much from the efficiencies of the Internet. Such as silk production. So perhaps there will come industries that for whatever reason don't benefit from efficiency technology. And those could be the ones people are hired to work in.
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