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[eerr]

Theres so much here, I just don't know where to begin!

The better question is, why would the person debate angrily rather than debate calmly?

Because they get more from it, or at least expect to, or it comes naturally.

Good luck pinning down someone/something specific, because theres an awful lot of varieties for mixing anger and talk.

[chaoticag]

Concisely I think it has a root of lack of critical thinking skills.

We have another winner?

A lack of thinking, really. A friend of mine argues with people because he is never willing to accept their side, or has already accepted their side and is doing it for the fun of it. He relies heavily on the chewbaca defense, and the fact that you make assumptions about him taking sides. The sooner you realise there is no convincing him through words, the better off you are. Best way to find out that argueing is futile in all its forms, really.

[Shades]

I charge between $75/hour and $100/hour for web development, and I'm pretty sure a lawyer's worth more than that.

Your undercharging, please don't provide cheaper alternatives its hard enough to convince people my charges are market averages already

[MrWiggles]

Best way to find out that argueing is futile in all its forms, really.

Are you using argue and debate here interchangeably?

[JoshuaFH]

Hey Truean, what should one do if one suspects that he's getting overbilled?

[chaoticag]

Best way to find out that argueing is futile in all its forms, really.

Are you using argue and debate here interchangeably?

It may seem like a debate, but I assure you that it will soon become an argument.

[Truean]

Hey Truean, what should one do if one suspects that he's getting overbilled?

That gets into a negotiation, which is an individualized experience for each time. However, there are some general rules. Typically,think like a lawyer, because that is who you are ultimately going to have to convince when it comes to legal billing charges (your lawyer, another lawyer to dispute the charge and/or perhaps the bar association/ethics board).

Look carefully at your billing statements and go through each item to see if you understand why you are being charged for it. If you do not understand, then make a clear note of it and why you don't understand it. Keep in mind that there may well be very legitimate charges that most laypeople don't understand without explanation. With this information in hand, call your lawyer's office and ask to speak to the person who handles the billing. Note that I have had people call my boss a "rip off," "wonder what he is doing for his money," and all sorts of derogatory things. Do not do this, remain calm and respectful, or no one will want to help you. The idea is to calmly talk about the charges and see if you can get them reduced. Name calling is counterproductive.

Keep in mind that you may very well be given to a secretary/clerk, who might not know everything about his or her boss's notes. We are laypeople too, technically. You might very well have to talk to the lawyer or be called back by the lawyer. This might necessitate a few friendly calls on your part, because lawyers are busy people with 20 clients pulling them in different directions. Keep your composure if it takes a little while.

When talking to the lawyer, have a well organized discussion about specific billing charges you can go over with him or her. The nature of this conversation will be highly dependent upon the charges, but never just say "this is too much." Give a specific reason why, while avoiding blame.

If all else fails and you really truly think you have a valid claim, the local bar association takes complaints about this sort of thing. Keep in mind that there is no surer way to piss off a lawyer than reporting him or her to the bar. It should be an absolute measure of last resort for you. Consider talking to another lawyer about your lawyer's billing practices before reporting him or her to the bar. Specific downsides to the client include having your lawyer not represent you after you report him, and having your lawyer collect his fee anyhow if you are wrong.

In short, here is the process:
1.) Talk to your lawyer's secretary/billing specialist
2.) Talk to your lawyer.
3.) Talk to another lawyer about the bills
4.) Talk to the bar association.

Keep in mind lawyers have broad discretion about the fees they charge, as long as they are legal and ethical. For specific legal advice in your area, consult an attorney, specifically an attorney specializing in legal ethics if you can find one. Call your local bar association for a referral. Note that just because he didn't win the case, doesn't mean he doesn't get paid; it depends what you bargained for.

Always keep in mind two of the basic rules of law:
1.) Do not piss off the judge.
2.) Prove it.

Notice the order of the rules....

[Blacken]

I charge between $75/hour and $100/hour for web development, and I'm pretty sure a lawyer's worth more than that.

Your undercharging, please don't provide cheaper alternatives its hard enough to convince people my charges are market averages already

I'm in a depressed market. It won't bear higher.

[MrWiggles]

Best way to find out that argueing is futile in all its forms, really.

Are you using argue and debate here interchangeably?

It may seem like a debate, but I assure you that it will soon become an argument.

Thats absurd, you can have a debate without turning into an argument. In fact, I had one not to long ago  on this forum, and generally have them among friends.

[cowofdoom78963]

Best way to find out that argueing is futile in all its forms, really.

Are you using argue and debate here interchangeably?

It may seem like a debate, but I assure you that it will soon become an argument.

Thats absurd, you can have a debate without turning into an argument. In fact, I had one not to long ago  on this forum, and generally have them among friends.

For all intents and purposes debate and argument are both the same thing.

In the end it's two people who disagree on something talking it out like men.

[MrWiggles]

Best way to find out that argueing is futile in all its forms, really.

Are you using argue and debate here interchangeably?

It may seem like a debate, but I assure you that it will soon become an argument.

Thats absurd, you can have a debate without turning into an argument. In fact, I had one not to long ago  on this forum, and generally have them among friends.

For all intents and purposes debate and argument are both the same thing.

In the end it's two people who disagree on something talking it out like men.

That is true, I suppose before a fallacy of definition creeps in, a useable definition for debate and argument should be stated and stuck to.

[darkrider2]

Sometimes people will argue just to vent... they could be mad about something else that's happened and need to get some of that anger out. (ex... lost your job, just got your utility bills, can't pay rent, someone died, someone else made a hate arguement that made you mad, yata yata yata etc.)

The only way to argue with these people is to take it calm and look up all your facts, then state them all in an impenetrable wall of concrete logic. 

[Shades]

If they are just venting its possible you don't need to say anything at all, venting is a good process to remove stress and they may well not actually agree with what they are saying, just need to say it.

[Dwarf]

Hi there, I'm Aqizzar.  I don't believe we've met.

Hi there, I'm Truean. Now we have. That was fun. Nice to meet you.

I glad you were nice about that.  I was actually being arrogant there and flaunting my stance on argumentative honesty.  Thank you for taking it kindly, and I hope we have interesting conversations.

My boss only charges $185 an hour, which isn't bad for a 40 year veteran lawyer with his own law practice. This other jerk isn't half as old and objectiony as my boss and he's trying to charge $375 an hour!

This is kind of what I'm talking about.  You're proud and impressed that he charges $185 an hour?  I think $100 an hour might be reasonable.  It's a professional job with professional pay.  Like an auto mechanic, but with a little more training and a lot less broken knuckles.

-Charging 20 minutes for a 5 minute phone call.
-Charging 30 minutes to review a "notice of hearing" (a little slip of paper).
-Charging lawyer's rates for basic secretarial services
-Having vague billing descriptions like "cut and paste ORC 4715 and charging 675 for it.
-Charging interest when none is provided by statute or contract.

At least now my lawyer is starting to make sense.  He demanded $1000 up front and $2500 as fast as I could pay it, then had the audacity to charge me $150 for a half hour of phone calls (if that much time) when some paperwork needed shuffling.  For a case to get the fine reduced from $1500 to $500, and then backed down from that too.  And he was the cheapest guy in town.

Lawyers should be banned. I see no point in them. They are there just to give the edge over the poor. Why can't both sides be defended by the government-issue defender guy?

[Shades]

Lawyers should be banned. I see no point in them. They are there just to give the edge over the poor. Why can't both sides be defended by the government-issue defender guy?

Your question was answered earlier

to give the edge over the poor