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Author Topic: CCS now under development  (Read 32752 times)

Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #105 on: February 22, 2010, 05:08:29 pm »

The engine no longer runs on my computer, even with a fresh install and a restart, but while I had it working I played BGC and Zombie Horror.

Couldn't get into BGC -- lots of fiddly features, and I couldn't find my way around Mega Tokyo. Needed a map, really, or at least the ability to look out of the freeways and see the rest of the city to get my bearings. I tried a courier mission, couldn't find the meeting location, and gave up. I liked the flavor text for browsing the lingerie racks though.

Zombie Horror, I really liked. I felt the exterior environments were too big and empty, and the inability to see anything at all at night was a little rough, since I couldn't find buildings. I'd put lights by the building exteriors, maybe. One of my characters died from shooting through glass, which was unexpected, especially at near full health -- I'd tone the damage from the glass down a bit.

Called the customer support, unlocked the gun cabinets, looted the mall, died in the kennels. The opening can be a little slow if you know where everything is already, but it was fun to explore the first couple times. I liked the conversations with other characters, and the choice of what item you want from the mall. I didn't have the opportunity to use the chainsaw, since lighting was so important and I needed a free hand to use a flashlight, so I stuck to machete or pistol. I wanted some other way to break into shops besides using a gun.
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Zangi

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #106 on: February 22, 2010, 09:20:18 pm »

@BGC: I have to agree with the highways...  I'm at an impasse too with my first quest...  I don't know who I need to murder.  I didn't get the name and can't find it anywhere, even the quest giver isn't mentioning it.  Cool that you can kill the security camera though.

EDIT: Its a pity you did all this only to have it... be unnoticed.

Wrong time... wrong people... wrong place.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 11:17:16 pm by Zangi »
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EuchreJack

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #107 on: February 23, 2010, 09:50:20 pm »

I'm rather partial to the Dragonball T.  The variety of developing the character is appealing.

Lordbucket,
Regarding BGC: It really does look interesting, but there is a bug which seems to kick in where the main character will be trapped iin a black screen.  Apparently character-switching is a workaround, but not so helpful in the middle of a mission.  Also, you wouldn't happen to have a map for BGC lying around your PC, would you?  Even a very crude and incomplete one would be better than nothing.

Another idea: if you really want to see the download count explode, try posting your TOME modules in the "other games" forum.  It may result in nothing, or it might exceed 100 pages by September.

But the dream of course is still to play Custom Crime Squad.  I plan to lead the Catholic Crime Squad to greater glory!  Repeal Roe v. Wade!  End the Death Penalty!  Reduce taxes, so people can donate more to the church!  Reword money to say, "In Jesus we trust!"  Give workers off on Sunday, in following Holy Scripture!  Holy War!

a1s

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #108 on: February 26, 2010, 09:29:24 pm »

BGC: since you didn't make that thread, I guess I'll vent here.
That game is Bugged, with a capital B. aside from that back screen thing (which can be cured if you manage to sumble onto an exit from the area), and the map (which is not a bug in the game),
  • if you don't buy a ticket for the subway it will send you into a random (though consistent throughout the game) location when you exit?
  • (for that matter I could never travel anywhere with the subway even with a ticket, but I expect I just didn't get how...)
  • when you enter a subway, any subway, it will send you to the subway you were last in, exiting will naturally place you wherever that subway station is. Also (I figured out how the subway works), sometimes when you slide a ticket (step on the yellow dot), the barrier door won't open, and that will be it. Buying a new ticket will not help. Blowing the door to bits, however, will.
  • did you know that quests never expire? it's true! (at least for runner quests, I'm testing others too).
  • Speaking of runner quests, when you need to meet a person at the apartment complex they will still not open the door for you? or come meet you.
  • if you kill police (ADP) they will hate the knights, but not you.
  • if you try to shoot (or even target) a piece of concrete (or rubble) you will get an error message
  • during a boomer attack police will appear in random places (but not in fact at the site) and announce a boomer is on the premises
  • another annoying non bug: whatever possessed you to represent building walls with the same symbol as unknown space? (it's not as annoying in BGC, but it's near-gamebreaking in zombie horror, if you ever run out of lights)
  • not sure what caused this but in my last games there were boomer attacks on every turn, I first noticed  because there were ADP placement errors popping up, but when I turned on my phone, Nene would ring after each step I made and claim a boomer atttack was going on. why isn't the phone on by default, BTW?
how much feedback did you say you got?  :-\
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 09:50:17 pm by a1s »
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #109 on: February 27, 2010, 01:38:38 am »

Bear in mind that BGC was never finished, and is listed as version 0.5.5. Bugs like that are to be expected. It's entirely possible that he's aware of these problems, but simply discontinued development before fixing them.
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a1s

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #110 on: February 27, 2010, 04:37:57 pm »

well, yeah, but you'd think obvious stuff, like the subway bug or the runner quest bug, would be in the first bugreport he ever got (then again, maybe they're unique to this version...) It's also possible the going from a18 to a19 (which is what I have) is what causes the bugs, though this would be quite odd.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 04:39:54 pm by a1s »
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LordBucket

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #111 on: February 27, 2010, 11:33:18 pm »

Jonathan S. Fox
The engine no longer runs on my computer,

This is kind of discouraging. Apparently this bug was reported in April 2007 (by me, no less) and has been unresolved since then. It massively diminishes my enthusiasm to develop when a significant portion of the user base is going to have this kind of problem.

However, there are two positives:

1) There is a simple workaround. Included in the windows disribution there are two executables. tome3.exe exhibits this problem. tome3-sdl.exe does not. So, use the SDL version. It is graphically somewhat different and to get a screen larger than 24x80, screen resizing must be done by text-editing configuration files rather than with the mouse, but it does work.

2) There is a push going on right now to fix these problems and get the engine into beta. Whether that happens or not remains to be seen. But there are people working on it, and apparently some of these problems have already been fixed and are simply awaiting CVS commitment.


Quote
Zombie Horror, I really liked.

Thank you. Yes, Zombie Horror was very well received. It has a few loose ends (Tyler never arrives, the reactor never melts down, the hidden area in the maintains isn't accessible, etc.) but it was a 7 day roguelike, and I started to run out of time.

Quote
I'd tone the damage from the glass down a bit

...did it occur to you that perhaps the lethality of glass might be...useful?

Quote
I didn't have the opportunity to use the chainsaw, since lighting was so important and I needed a free hand to use a flashlight

...well, there are other solutions to that particular problem, but it's certainly possible to get through the game with just a machete and a flashlight. I don't usually use the chainsaw myself, either.


Quote
BGC
I couldn't find my way around Mega Tokyo. Needed a map

That was the most frequent complaint. Personally, as someone who used to play games that required pencil and paper mapping on graph paper, I never understood why BGC players were so unwilling to simply writie down a whole dozen place names and associate them with an area number and a subway station name. It actually is possible is get an overhead map of your current area by pressing capital-M, but as for a "see everything" map...it's kind of the whole point of the design that getting around is something you have to specifically learn how to do. The design was inspired by the month I spent in Tokyo. Trust me...all the difficulty you have getting around in BGC is totally true to life.

Anyway, it's actually much easier to get around than it first appears. The whole of the aboveground-Tokyo map is basically two interlinked circles. You just can't see it because of the limited visibility. But since every highway, every junction, and every major building is all clearly labeled, all it really takes is five minutes taking notes of landmarks and you'll see how it all fits together.

Here's the spoiler:
You start in Area 2. You'll notice the "Area 2 Apartments" directly to the west of Silk'n Doll. If you go directly north through Junction 4, it will take you to Area 12. (Again, see the label: Area 12 Apartments." The path to the left through Junction 11, and the path to the right through Junction 17 are both dead ends. Left goes to the park, right goes to Fuchi Cybersystems. Instead, just keep going north.

You're now on the freeway. If you go south, you'll come to a Y. South at the Y leads you exactly right back where came from: Area 12. West taes you to Area 1, which connects via Junction 7 back to Area 2 with the Sil'n Doll. That's the first circle.

The second circle is bigger, not not much more complex. From the Silk'n Doll, again go north to Area 12, and north onto the freeway. Go east on Highway 16, keep going east at first Y, the exit the offramp west at the next Y. You'll see the Gym the moment you come out, and by following the road and looing for the apartments you'll see that you're in Area 8. Just keep following the road south, you'll pass through Junctions 8 and 6 into Area3, with USSD the first building you'll see. To the northwest is a dead end with Genom. Instead, keep going south, through Junction 5, to the Beach, then Junction 15 to Genom Research. The next Y is redundant. Whichever way you take will more or less lead you to the same place, but if we take the east path, we'll pass ADPolice headquarters. So do that, turn south, then west, then east at the next offramp, and you'll exit at Raven's, back in Area 2 where you started.

And that's the whole circuit. You've just seen every major building in the game. The turns that we didn't take are all either dead ends, redundant loops, or transitions back and forth between the two circles. Once you know those circles, getting anywhere is just a matter of getting on the freeway and following the circle until you get the offramp you want. And occasionally you have to swap from one circle to the other. Or, simply take a subway. I figured most people would to begin with. Just write down a list of place names and where they are, and go directly by subway without worrying where they actually are on the map.



LordBucket

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #112 on: February 27, 2010, 11:53:12 pm »

Quote from: Zangi
BGC
I don't know who I need to murder.  I didn't get the name and can't find it anywhere, even the quest giver isn't mentioning it

Press ~ to get a menu, and option 6 to see your quest log. Or, press ctrl-Q to get to it directly. That should give you all the information you need.


Quote from: EuchreJack
I'm rather partial to the Dragonball T.  The variety of developing the character is appealing.

Thank you. Yes, the skill system was a lot of fun to build, and I've always liked the idea of developing skills in-game rather than simply choosing "classes" to begin with. Having to choose between schools and eliminate competitors was a fun way to develop your "class" as you go.

Quote
Regarding BGC
trapped iin a black screen
Apparently character-switching is a workaround, but not so helpful in the middle of a mission

I think a quick save and reload fixes that too.

Quote
you wouldn't happen to have a map for BGC
lying around your PC, would you?

It would be difficult to make a map. It's somewhat three dimensional. For example, from the Silk'n Doll, go north into Junction 4. Look where you're standing. Now exit the Junction into Area 12, and walk in clockwise circle onto the freeway onramp. You'll see that in terms of X and Y you're standing exactly where you were a moment ago, but you're somewhere else.

Anyway, see the above post if you want a spoiler.

Quote
if you really want to see the download count explode, try posting your TOME modules in the "other games" forum.

...let's see if the T3 beta release happens. If it does, then I might pick up these modules again and do that.

Quote
But the dream of course is still to play Custom Crime Squad.

Heh. Yes, I suppose I should give everyone an update on that.

Data structures are mostly in place, the display is functional, and it's possible to move around between a couple sites. Item design is the most recent thing I've been working on, and combat will be next after that. Overall, it's about 10% to being far enough along for me to release it for testing.

Though for the past few days I've been focusing less on Crime Squad and more on encouraging the people who've picked up T3 development into fixing bugs and getting the engine into beta. I'd really like to see that black screen problem resolved. It's possible to get around...again, the SDL version does work now, but the non-SDL is so much prettier, and I'd prefer to not limit the players to 24x80 screens. Not everybody is going to be willing to edit text files to change their screen size.

LordBucket

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #113 on: February 28, 2010, 12:02:02 am »

whatever possessed you to represent building walls
with the same symbol as unknown space?

I didn't. You're playing the SDL version under windows. It mutates lots of high-ascii characters into that silly little box symbol. You'll see a similar effect by copy and pasting high ascii into MS word, for example.

Quote from: Jonathan S. Fox
Bear in mind that BGC was never finished, and is listed as version 0.5.5. Bugs like that are to be expected. It's entirely possible that he's aware of these problems, but simply discontinued development before fixing them.

Pretty much. With a few exceptions like the above, most of the bugs lists here are known. But it never seemed very important to go through and fix them when 90% of my feedback at the time was from people whining about the map, or how difficult hardsuit design was, or telling me they just wanted a mindless dungeon crawler, or similar.

Overall, BGC was not well received by the ToME crowd.

Zangi

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #114 on: February 28, 2010, 02:22:35 am »

Haha... mindless dungeon crawler... dime a dozen.

Oh yea, there was a time I tried to get into an apartment with my hardsuit on and someone screamed boomer on the coms. 
I passed by later and saw the cops there so I went in looking for a boomer and never found it.
...  That boomer thing is me wasn't it?

Also, killed a boomer before and never was able to get the Marcoh or whatever guy to pick it up.

And then... there was a time I tried to deliver some weed or something implied to be illegal to someone... (I think) and wasn't able to get inside the apartment to deliver it or even leave it at the door.  I called the recipient and he wouldn't recognize me...

Was cool that everyone had their own cash count... though it seems Red spent all her cash in the bar didn't she?
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #115 on: February 28, 2010, 02:23:57 am »

Quote
I'd tone the damage from the glass down a bit

...did it occur to you that perhaps the lethality of glass might be...useful?

Oh yes, and I killed zombies using it, but having a character I spent the last 5-10 minutes working with killed instantly because I did something that intuitively should not have even injured her outweighed any benefits I perceived.

Quote
BGC
I couldn't find my way around Mega Tokyo. Needed a map

That was the most frequent complaint. Personally, as someone who used to play games that required pencil and paper mapping on graph paper, I never understood why BGC players were so unwilling to simply writie down a whole dozen place names and associate them with an area number and a subway station name. It actually is possible is get an overhead map of your current area by pressing capital-M, but as for a "see everything" map...it's kind of the whole point of the design that getting around is something you have to specifically learn how to do. The design was inspired by the month I spent in Tokyo. Trust me...all the difficulty you have getting around in BGC is totally true to life.

I believe you. I have little doubt that Tokyo is a lot more fun to get lost in than ASCII though.

It's true, there was a time when mapping out mazes and getting lost in old RPGs was part of the immersion, and indeed, I have fond memories of keeping binders full of hard copy notes and maps. In some sense, the degree of commitment and personal connection with the game has been degraded because this style of play no longer has traction. But even so, these days, if you force players to take notes in order to play your game, you've immediately reduced your potential player base by an enormous factor. Even Myst couldn't make that assumption; they had to provide in-game journals that included notes other people had taken for you, and there was never a series more perfect for note taking than that one.

Today most commercial games have minimaps, arrows that show you where your next mission or quest is, and other cheesy interface elements to help ferry players from one nugget of fun to the next. The most successful studios even do formal playtesting sessions to iron out every point where a player feels lost or confused. Yeah, they're spoiled, but it turns out most people find that to be more fun.

Although mapping itself may be dead, I think that a lot of the sense of satisfaction that you could experience with a binder full of notes and maps in the old days can still be found in games like Dwarf Fortress and various roguelikes. LCS too, for that matter. They all have a number of punishingly difficult mechanics, and require a certain level of commitment and interaction on the part of the player to master.
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jasonred79

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #116 on: February 28, 2010, 02:29:35 am »

Then why do so many people think that it's important to get a map of each site in LCS? No, I think mapping is well and truly dead.

The game that well and truly killed my playing though was Bard's Tale. It may be a true classic, but having rooms that spin you around AND have unbreakable darkness? Making your players get hopelessly lost and stumble around in the dark isn't that fun, to me. Not fun at all.
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Zangi

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #117 on: March 01, 2010, 08:17:59 pm »

Hah, just got in a discussion with coworkers about welfare people choosing not to work in favor of getting... welfare.

Fodder against the liberal agenda for the CCS.  We(the CCS) will fight against such injustice.  The hard working folk shall not bear the yoke of these freeloading hippies!
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praguepride

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #118 on: March 03, 2010, 08:07:26 pm »

Maybe I'm a little late for the "conservative viewpoint of issues" debate but my thougths have always been that conservatism = safety. Safety and freedom are on opposite ends of the axis. Liberals allow a slightly unsafe world in order to preserve true freedom, while conservatives are willing to sacrifice freedom to ensure safety.

Here's my thoughts on some of the issues. I'm not going to go the full spectrum, just C+, L+, and L++

Abortion:
C+: A persons rights begin at conception
L+: Abortion are performed freely.
L++: Abortions are the preferred alternative to adoption.

Animal Testing:
C+: Animals are used to test potentially dangerous products before human use.
L+: Animals have equal rights to people.
L++: Animals are allowed to run for office.

Law Enforcement:
C+: Law Enforcement is given full jurisdiction in crime prevention.
L+: Police are elected officials.
L++: Police must campaign for office every 2 years.

Privacy
C+: Information is freely shared.
L+: Citizens have the rights to privacy.
L++: Corporations and the Government are not allowed to record any information about anyone.

Nuclear Power
C+: Nuclear Power is the preferred energy source.
L+: The majority of the country runs on renewable energy.
L++: Non-renewable energy sources are deemed illegal.

Pollution:
C+: Industries regulate their own pollution levels.
L+: All industry is kept to strict pollution control.
L++: Violating pollution controls counts as a felony. (weak I know, needs to be improved)

Work Week:
C+: There are no age limits restricting the work force
L+: Strict age limits and work week shortened to 4 days.
L++: People without high school degrees are unable to work. Work week shortened to 3 days.

Homosexuals
C+: The sanctity of marriage is perserved.
L+: Homosexuals are given equal rights.
L++: Homosexuals are given more rights then heterosexual couples.

Corportions:
C+: There are no artificial limits imposed on corporations
L+: Corporations are strictly controlled.
L++: Corporation CEO's are publically elected.

Free Speech:
C+: Police are allowed to stop people from disturbing the peace
L+: Free Speech is upheld, you can say anything you want.
L++: There are no limits. It is legal to shout "Fire" in crowded places, or to make verbal threats without recourse.

Flag Burning:
C+: The symbol of the nation is held sacred.
L+: The flag is just a piece of paper.
L++: Flag Burning is a national pasttime.

Gun Control:
C+: Citizens have the right to bear arms.
L+: Guns are illegal.
L++: Guns are completely banned from the country. Military and Law Enforcement must use non-lethal weapons.

Tax Code:
C+: The tax code is tightly controlled and legisalted.
L+: The tax code hits the wealthy the hardest.
L++: Only the wealthy are taxed.

Women:
C+: For safety reasons, women are not allowed into certain professions.
L+: Women have equal rights as men.
L++: It is a felony to refer to anybody by their gender. This includes media reports and law enforcement investigations.

Racial Discrimination
C+: Racial Discrimination is prohibited. Corporations are responsible for their own enforcement.
L+: Racial Discrimination is highly illegal.
L++: It is a felony to refer to anybody by their race. This includes news reports and police investigations.

Drugs
C+: Drug Dealers are fully punished by the law.
L+: Every drug is legalized.
L++: Every toxic and dangerous substance is freely accessed by the public.

Immigration
C+: Illegal immigration is strictly enforced. Violators are deported.
L+: The borders are open to all.
L++: Taxes fund social services to help immigrants find jobs and residence.

Politicans
C+: Politicians are free to campaign however they wish.
L+: Politician campaiging is strictly regulated.
L++: Politician Campaign Oversight committees monitor every state and federal election.

Military
C+: The military is well-funded to ensure safety and security against outside threats.
L+: The military is a volunteer basis.
L++: The military has been completely disbanded.

Interrogations
C+: Military and Intelligence interrogators are free to use their own judgement on necessary procedures.
L+: Torture and interrogation is illegal.
L++: The military and intelligence agencies are not allowed to question or detain suspects or prisoners of war.


**NEW ISSUE**
Welfare
C+: There is no welfare. Everyone is expected to provide for themselves.
L+: Welfare is well funded and widely available.
L++: Welfare has no limits. A person on welfare never has to find a job again.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 09:52:49 am by praguepride »
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Servant Corps

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Re: CCS now under development
« Reply #119 on: March 03, 2010, 08:17:40 pm »

Then why do so many people think that it's important to get a map of each site in LCS? No, I think mapping is well and truly dead.

Maps are needed because the layout of each Site randomly changes every few days. I always saw that mechanic as nerfing mapping, and thereby compelling the LCS player to actually gain Maps if they want to stay competitive.
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