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Author Topic: The Philosophy of Artifacts.  (Read 1298 times)

coogiez

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The Philosophy of Artifacts.
« on: February 01, 2010, 02:21:59 am »

Where does the inspiration come from?

WHY does the inspiration come?

where do the specifics of what the Artifacts reflects come from, how are they picked?

Why does the inspiration only come ONCE?

Who is more likely to get the inspiration, the worker, or the noble?

If i were to change a legendary miner to a woodcutter, would the inspiration reflect the dwarves job, or it's knowledge?

Do philosophers get the inspiration?

Do even hewmens or the HIPPIES get the inspiration?

What about goblins? or are they left out entirely because they're demon-fodder?

Why do only some get inspiration in their lives, while some don't?

Do these inspirations, and how they supposedly use the fuel of the imaginations of the chosen dwarves minds, once done, leave the dwarves empty?
(perhaps giving reason to why (some) dwarves have a tendency to hold onto their artifacts?)


And finally, if an artifact is forgotten for millennia under a torrent of water or a sea of snow, when/if they're ever found, why do they keep their same worth?

 ???
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zwei

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Re: The Philosophy of Artifacts.
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2010, 02:36:42 am »

Where does the inspiration come from?

I know with certainty what inspired artifacts in my latest fortress:

1st artifact: a Veil
2nd artifact: a Veil (better one with more cloth used)

I simply have very, very ugly dwarf lady in there and everyone agreed that it would have Artifact veil to hide that. And they decided that they need spare.

darkflagrance

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Re: The Philosophy of Artifacts.
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2010, 02:39:30 am »

Where does the inspiration come from?

I know with certainty what inspired artifacts in my latest fortress:

1st artifact: a Veil
2nd artifact: a Veil (better one with more cloth used)

I simply have very, very ugly dwarf lady in there and everyone agreed that it would have Artifact veil to hide that. And they decided that they need spare.

More likely, they soon realized one was not enough.
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Keevu

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Re: The Philosophy of Artifacts.
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2010, 02:41:53 am »

Good thread. I do think that old forgotten artifacts should be worth more.

I think that the reason dwarves only get inspiration once is because creating an artifact fills a void inside the dwarf. And that is something all dwarves strive for in order to live a complete life. Sadly some dwarves die before they get inspiration for an artifact.
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NecroRebel

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Re: The Philosophy of Artifacts.
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2010, 03:06:05 am »

Artifacts are a side effect of the attention of one of the Great Cats. See, normally, no creature creates artifacts. But when a Great Cat chooses to push their attention onto a settlement, adopting every creature within as their own, they also inadvertently cause mental imbalances in the inhabitants, causing "strange moods." Once a creature has had one of these moods, they become used to the presence of the Great Cat in their mind, thus preventing a second mood from occuring, since no more imbalance is present in their minds.

Now, since the effect of the Great Cats is entirely mental and not at all physical, it doesn't matter what the creature is doing at the moment. Only what they know matters for the mental imbalance's effects, which is why only a creature's actual skill matters as to what a mood actually affects.

Of course, there do exist some rare individuals who happen to be highly resistant to the effects of the Great Cats (though, curiously, some of these are not also resistant to the mind-controlling effects of the lesser felines). Those who have such resistance are called Nobles, for they can walk in the halls of places under the sway of a Great Cat without their minds being touched. These nobles, due to their resistance to the Great Cats' effects, are also not affected by the mental imbalances that bring about strange moods in lesser creatures. The strongest of the Nobles, the ones who are least vulnerable overall to the Great Cats' powers, are those called the Philosophers; unlike even the lesser Nobles, the Philosopher does not even give the Great Cat controlling their homes the pleasure of telling them where to live, and do not give excuses for the Great Cat to force the creation of strange and random objects.



Some legends say that most Great Cats in fact enjoy the fruits of the labors of those who their mind control forces upon their victims. It seems that they gain some perverse pleasure in creating vast amounts of wealth in their lands, causing the creation of vast and useless structures, and of slaughtering those who do not dance to amuse them. Part of this has lead some to believe that they allow strange moods to occur on purpose, for the products of such events are, as is well-known, highly valuable. Indeed, there are even some legends of places, watched by a Great Cat, which never form the necessary mental imbalances; it is like those Great Cats who, for whatever reason, do not want artifacts to be created can prevent them from being made. Still, this is all just conjecture, for the minds of the Great Cats are unknowable to the inhabitants of the Worlds...

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Toady Two

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Re: The Philosophy of Artifacts.
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2010, 03:46:55 am »

They are slaves to Armok.

Goblins, Elves, Humans and even Kobolds do get strange moods if you mod them to be playable.

Anyway moods are likely caused by being under the influence of the player. They don't occur normally in worldgen.

I wouldn't put my faith into the players are cats theory. Considering how many of us see cats more by their byproducts: hides to make leather for socks, tallow to make fat for soap, and meat to make biscuits (that are delicious).
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coogiez

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Re: The Philosophy of Artifacts.
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2010, 03:49:43 am »

Oh, he didn't say cats, he said Great Cats!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 03:53:45 am by coogiez »
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When i looked into that old mans eyes..
I saw what was once fire, the spark was there, but the glow..
His life.. slowly fading, i could see it.
the blood running away.

He didn't want to die, the sky was still blue.

TKTom

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Re: The Philosophy of Artifacts.
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2010, 04:47:34 am »

Considering how many of us see cats more by their byproducts: hides to make leather for socks, tallow to make fat for soap, and meat to make biscuits (that are delicious).

 What made you think that cats like other cats?
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Ieb

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Re: The Philosophy of Artifacts.
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2010, 04:48:27 am »

Hmm, would be interesting if there would be artifacts during worldgen. Although since the average rate from them is, what, 3 per year, your whole world would end up with hundreds of artifacts before your worldgen even ends. We'll see how that works in the future, eh.

Now lessee.

Quote
where do the specifics of what the Artifacts reflects come from, how are they picked?
If the dwarf likes a certain object, like a carpenter likes beds, then they will make one if they get struck by a mood. For dwarves without object preferences, I'm pretty sure it's random what they create. To some degree, I mean stone-/ bone-/ woodcrafters always make a toy, instrument or a craft, but never furniture. Miners like furniture but don't turn into masons as result, gem cutters most often make a perfect gem, at least for me, while gem setters are likely to create a piece of furniture out of a gem. How, hell if I know. Magic, probably.

Quote
Who is more likely to get the inspiration, the worker, or the noble?
Only nobles you're able to set yourself, brokers, managers and so on, are able to get into a mood. Sheriff excluded, except if at the time of appointment they're a Recruit and go in a mood. But really, it WOULD be amusing to some degree if a noble would be able to mood as well. Maybe they'd have extra insane moods because they are extra insane compared to normal dwarves.

Quote
If i were to change a legendary miner to a woodcutter, would the inspiration reflect the dwarves job, or it's knowledge?
Skill level dictates what job they are of and what mood they follow. So a legendary miner with Skilled Woodcutter would still be a miner and would mood into the closest Mason's shop to make something. Woodcutters would just grab the craftshop to make rock, bone or wood artifact craft.

Quote
Why do only some get inspiration in their lives, while some don't?
RNG. And with the rate of 3-4 moods per year, unless you're continually mining, producing etc. to tick the Mood Timer down faster, you're going to have to wait a pretty long time to have everyone having had some mood during their lives. Excluding failed moods due to lack of some item or another.

Quote
And finally, if an artifact is forgotten for millennia under a torrent of water or a sea of snow, when/if they're ever found, why do they keep their same worth?
Hmm. At the moment, artifacts don't really do much unless they are a weapon or armor. They're just there to look nice. I wonder how long until they have some special effects like Threetoe's stories say. Anyway.

I figure it's more that the dwarves evaluate the item based on what's it's made of, not what it's purpose is. A goblet made of mica might still be worth 2400 dwarf bucks, even if it can create fireballs out of water and it sings the songs of it's people when everyone is trying to sleep.

As an artifact though, no matter the worth, it's still irreplaceable. Unless some jerk has a mood that produces another, more valuable copy of the object.
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Armok

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Re: The Philosophy of Artifacts.
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2010, 12:30:46 pm »

They are slaves to Armok.
I *AM* a cat, duh.
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smjjames

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Re: The Philosophy of Artifacts.
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2010, 01:07:39 pm »

You'd have to ask someone who plays as humans or some other race to find out about that.

Sometimes the inspiration seems to have come from what they were doing or something that happened very recently. Like once I had a carpenter set to make alot of barrels and he suddendly had a mood and what did he make?.... a barrel.

The names generally seem random, but sometimes they'll have a knack for making a good name. I even had one with a name that sounded like the creator had a religious experience or ephiphany or something. Forget what the name was or the artifact.
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Cruxador

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Re: The Philosophy of Artifacts.
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2010, 02:58:30 pm »

I believe the canonical answer to these questions is demons. There are bad things underground, but also great wealth. And as you dig out more, your dwarves will more often go crazy - but can also produce great wealth from doing so.
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RandomNumberGenerator

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Re: The Philosophy of Artifacts.
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2010, 04:56:18 pm »

I came up with something similar, for a different game I played. In it there was the Emptiness, a world that was slowly falling apart(dissolving?) that you could visit and kill monsters in. The monsters would drop memories which could be turned into magic enchantments for existing items.

I came up with a theory how the Emptiness used to be another, parallel world, which was infected. As the world deteriorated, the spirit of the destroyed world manifested in the memories. When those memories are restored in other items, the spirit enhances the effect of those items, so a profane memory would make an object more durable, while a fleeting memory would make it more lightweight, etc. The effects of the lost memory were transferred over, so to speak.

I presented this theory to my friends who also played the game. They responded by saying I was overthinking it was to much, that it was only a game, and to just play. When I finished the storyline though, I found my theory wasn't that far off. There were some parts I got wrong, but the general idea was correct.
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