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Author Topic: The Ark Project - Please Participate!  (Read 91527 times)

sunshaker

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Re: The Ark Project - Please Participate!
« Reply #300 on: January 13, 2010, 05:25:44 pm »

Wild Cat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_cat

Should this really be implemented as a separate species from DF's existing cat?  I'd just as soon assign a couple biomes to the cat and call it done.
Well they're as distinct from domestic cats as wolves are from dogs, certainly in terms of behaviour. Furthermore, I've heard of wild animals with [VERMINHUNTER] stalking your dwarves.

I made that mistake when I added ferrets, the wild ones would adopt dwarves, follow them around and flood me with cancellation spam (from the adopted dwarf and any dwarf they came near). Ferrets do not have biomes any more. I strongly recommend that creatures with [VERMINHUNTER] do not be given wild biomes to live in or are made non-domestic (lack [PET] tag).
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Lancensis

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Re: The Ark Project - Please Participate!
« Reply #301 on: January 13, 2010, 05:27:17 pm »

I still remember when people thought I honestly believed Sailormoon earned more then food and automobiles combined.
Don't remind me. Last time I go to you for investment advice.
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Footkerchief

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Re: The Ark Project - Please Participate!
« Reply #302 on: January 13, 2010, 05:37:37 pm »

Well they're as distinct from domestic cats as wolves are from dogs, certainly in terms of behaviour. Furthermore, I've heard of wild animals with [VERMINHUNTER] stalking your dwarves.

I made that mistake when I added ferrets, the wild ones would adopt dwarves, follow them around and flood me with cancellation spam (from the adopted dwarf and any dwarf they came near). Ferrets do not have biomes any more. I strongly recommend that creatures with [VERMINHUNTER] do not be given wild biomes to live in or are made non-domestic (lack [PET] tag).

Oh, well that's just a bug, then.  Given how strange it'll be to have wild cats in Fortress Mode ("Stray wild cat (tame)", no interbreeding, etc.) I'd say they should be left out until the game has some notion of breeds (which can't be implemented via castes, we've been over this).  We can leave it in the list with some annotation like "Not ready to be implemented" or something.
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Rainseeker

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Re: The Ark Project - Please Participate!
« Reply #303 on: January 13, 2010, 06:16:10 pm »

Hey team Ark!  Sorry for the silence.  Just so everyone knows, I'm handing this project over to Lancensis and Footkerchief.  This has happened because I took on one Dwarf Fortress-related sub-project too many.  I'm still going to participate when we get the new version out and put out some animals, and chime in this thread now and again.

What's going to happen is Lance and Foot will be putting up a new thread and when that's done (and they lets me know it's ready) I'll lock down this one.  The list that has been compiled up to this point will be updated - it's pretty big - and you guys will be able to see what's there.  I'm pretty excited by the diversity that's showing up!  Thanks for participating!
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Footkerchief

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Re: The Ark Project - Please Participate!
« Reply #304 on: January 16, 2010, 10:54:30 pm »

Okay, I rearranged the wiki.  Mammals, reptiles, birds, amphibians, bony/cartilaginous fish, and arthropods now have their own pages.

Gorobay, I used "colloquial names" for the titles of the new pages, but if you want to change them to taxonomic names, that's fine with me.

I still haven't heard back from Briess/Locriani about getting a new namespace on the wiki.  I'm working on a draft for the new thread -- I'll post that here soon so y'all can look over it.
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Rainseeker

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Re: The Ark Project - Please Participate!
« Reply #305 on: January 16, 2010, 11:01:20 pm »

Thanks for the hard work, Foot!  I like the wiki, it makes it way easier to organize and for everyone to participate!
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Footkerchief

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Re: The Ark Project - Please Participate!
« Reply #306 on: January 17, 2010, 01:29:13 am »

Okay, here's what I'm planning for the next OP.  Anyone have any thoughts or criticisms?  In particular, if anyone has more concise wording for any of the points below...



The Ark Project is a community-wide effort to increase the number and variety of DF's real-life animals.  Everyone is welcome to participate!

Right now we're still in the preliminary stage -- making a list of animals that will be added.  Due to the massive changes in the upcoming version, we aren't making creature raws yet.  After the release, we'll begin shifting gears toward implementing all the animals we've listed.

Where is help most needed?

What makes an animal worth including?
  • Uniqueness: the animal has interesting differences (morphology, behavior, habitat, diet, etc.) from others of its kind.  If a family or genus contains many species with uninteresting differences, consider lumping them into a single generic creature.
  • Non-extinction: if the animal has been extinct for more than (roughly) 1000 years, it belongs in one of the extinct sections.  Dinosaurs and Ice Age animals are not a major focus of this project, but you're welcome to add them.
  • Notability: the animal is widely recognized or has other cultural importance, such as a role in mythology.
  • Size: DF doesn't deal well with microscopic creatures, and they're generally not appropriate for the setting.

How do I add animals to the list?
  • If you don't already have one, create an account on the DF wiki.
  • Use an online source such as Wikipedia to find lists of animals.  The WP page for a particular taxon (biological grouping of organisms) usually has a "Taxonomy" or "Classification" section containing links to smaller subgroups, or a taxonomic diagram on the right side.
    • For example, on the WP page for the class Amphibia, the "Taxonomy" section links to the subclass Lissamphibia, which in turn links to the amphibian orders Anura, Caudata, and Gymnophiona.
  • Work down to more specific groups of creatures, generally at least to the family level.  Use the inclusion guidelines above to decide how many representatives each family should have.  Sometimes one is enough, and sometimes every species should be represented.
  • Choose an appropriate name for the creature.  Many animals are named after Earth places/people, which presents "flavor" problems for a DF mod.  Use an alternate name for these if possible.
  • Edit the relevant section of the creature list.  Include the creature's name and a link to its Wikipedia page.  If the creature is already present in vanilla DF, put "(already included)" after the link.
  • Use taxonomic groups to keep the lists readable and navigable.
  • Post in this thread to brag about your contributions! (optional)

This post will be updated as the project evolves.  The previous thread is here.  Thanks for helping out!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 01:56:39 am by Footkerchief »
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Gorobay

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Re: The Ark Project - Please Participate!
« Reply #307 on: January 17, 2010, 09:41:33 am »

Gorobay, I used "colloquial names" for the titles of the new pages, but if you want to change them to taxonomic names, that's fine with me.
I don't mind, as long as it is consistent.

Okay, here's what I'm planning for the next OP.  Anyone have any thoughts or criticisms?  In particular, if anyone has more concise wording for any of the points below...
The chimaera section also needs help: it is empty.

If an animal is already included, it should have '''(already included)''' after it; that is, it should be in boldface.

You should be more specific about size criteria. I don't think anyone would consider adding anything microscopic, but there are some arthropods that might be too small to be worth adding.

For naming, how do you know if an animal's Earth-specific namesake is a problem? For example, the rhesus macaque, the Xerces blue, the rhea, the python, and the echidna are named after Rhesus, Xerxes, Rhea, Python, and Echidna. (These are silly examples, and I don't mean we should rename them. They just illustrate my point.)

Since DF is an American game, one of the naming criteria should be that it be in American spelling, i.e. "bicolored frog" instead of "bicoloured frog".
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 12:49:08 pm by Gorobay »
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Neonivek

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Re: The Ark Project - Please Participate!
« Reply #308 on: January 17, 2010, 12:00:37 pm »

The few times Id accept a name that is a reference to something else is if it has eclypsed the original.

For example if you asked what a Python is... 30 out of 30 times people would refer to a snake. In fact I have no idea what Python's namesake is.

If no one knows what an animal's name refers to and they cannot guess then Id give a go ahead.

Also it seems like all those animals I added probably weren't included so I have a lot of work to do...

DEAR HOLY! I can't even find where the heck I am supposed to even be adding these animals...

Also split up Cenozoic that is too broad a seperation as it both includes
A) Wolly Mammoths, Terror Birds, Dire Wolves
and
B) The Dodo Birds, Passanger pigeon, and really any recently extinct animal.

The Dodo bird doesn't have the same context when we reflect upon it then the Wolly Mammoth.
-This also contradicts your statements on "Extinction" unless you plan to move the Extinct animals that don't fit there anymore. Like the Auroch who went extinct AFTER the medieval times.

One issue with your checklist Footkerchief is that some of those are suggestions while others are "NO!"

Unique and Notability is up there but only one needs to be fulfilled. A Unique creature that is otherwise unknown is perfectly alright (Some animals we know well today were pretty much unknown for much of history) while a Notable animal that isn't all that unique is alright as well.

Size and Extinction are however both required to get accepted. An animal cannot be microscopic and must exist in the last 1000 years.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 12:24:31 pm by Neonivek »
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Footkerchief

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Re: The Ark Project - Please Participate!
« Reply #309 on: January 17, 2010, 11:29:20 pm »

The chimaera section also needs help: it is empty.

The idea behind the "Where is help needed" was to draw attention to areas that need major attention and aren't likely to be completed in an afternoon by a single contributor.  It's newbie-oriented, basically.  There's something to be said for keeping track of all the unfinished sections, but that's better done in the wiki itself, I think (we could do something simple like put "UNFINISHED" in those sections).

If an animal is already included, it should have '''(already included)''' after it; that is, it should be in boldface.

Added.

You should be more specific about size criteria. I don't think anyone would consider adding anything microscopic, but there are some arthropods that might be too small to be worth adding.

"Size: the animal is large enough for a dwarf to take notice of it.  This rules out microorganisms and very small insects."

Better?  I can't think of any truly satisfying criteria for this one.  Someone did add tardigrades already -- that'll probably have to be removed.

For naming, how do you know if an animal's Earth-specific namesake is a problem? For example, the rhesus macaque, the Xerces blue, the rhea, the python, and the echidna are named after Rhesus, Xerxes, Rhea, Python, and Echidna. (These are silly examples, and I don't mean we should rename them. They just illustrate my point.)

"Make sure the creature's name doesn't contain a proper adjective (such as "African"), a proper noun (as in "Fraser's Dolphin") or any reference to Earth geography (such as "Northern")." 

Better?  I think that's a good indicator of whether it's "eclipsed the original," as Neonivek put it.  There are probably counterexamples, but I think it's as good a guideline as we're going to get.

Since DF is an American game, one of the naming criteria should be that it be in American spelling, i.e. "bicolored frog" instead of "bicoloured frog".

Okay, added.



Also split up Cenozoic that is too broad a seperation as it both includes
A) Wolly Mammoths, Terror Birds, Dire Wolves
and
B) The Dodo Birds, Passanger pigeon, and really any recently extinct animal.

The Dodo bird doesn't have the same context when we reflect upon it then the Wolly Mammoth.
-This also contradicts your statements on "Extinction" unless you plan to move the Extinct animals that don't fit there anymore. Like the Auroch who went extinct AFTER the medieval times.

I guess titling the page "Cenozoic" was a little unclear.  What it's really supposed to mean is something like "Pre-Medieval Cenozoic."  I'll retitle the page accordingly.

One issue with your checklist Footkerchief is that some of those are suggestions while others are "NO!"

Unique and Notability is up there but only one needs to be fulfilled. A Unique creature that is otherwise unknown is perfectly alright (Some animals we know well today were pretty much unknown for much of history) while a Notable animal that isn't all that unique is alright as well.

Size and Extinction are however both required to get accepted. An animal cannot be microscopic and must exist in the last 1000 years.

Okay, I merged uniqueness and notability to emphasize that an animal doesn't need both.  I reworded a few things to address what you said about "NO!" stuff (and I agree, I want to avoid a negative tone as much as possible), but let me know if it still needs work, and where.



Spoiler: updated draft (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 11:42:33 pm by Footkerchief »
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Footkerchief

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Re: The Ark Project - Please Participate!
« Reply #310 on: January 17, 2010, 11:56:09 pm »

So I am about to tackle insects and I am wondering your oppinions on how I should tackle it since we have rather sizable disagreements

For the most part there are thousands and thousands of insects but not all are very interesting. Though my goal really is that there should be enough beetles, butterflys, and other stuff that if someone wanted to start a collection in the game that you could have a sizable collection without ever getting into supernatural bugs.

Yeah, insects are going to require a lot of work.  I guess my recommendation would be to first work through the insect orders one at a time (the vast majority are in Neoptera) and include one representative of each family that isn't totally obscure and unrecognizable to the layman (that may eliminate most of them).  Once that's done, the insect section should have some nice taxonomic structure, which is absolutely essential considering how many insects we may end up with.  Then you can go back and start fleshing out the families that really need it, like ants.

On a side note: While the Spider section is very large and full of poisonous and dangerous spiders. Maybe there should be a few more mundane and common spiders who do not have any human killing poisons.

Oh yes, it's always cool to have more spiders.
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Fieari

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Re: The Ark Project - Please Participate!
« Reply #311 on: January 17, 2010, 11:57:24 pm »

On a non-opening post related comment-- all the birds listed under the "Extinct" page were around in DF's time frame.  Shall they be moved to the Aves page proper?
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Footkerchief

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Re: The Ark Project - Please Participate!
« Reply #312 on: January 18, 2010, 12:06:14 am »

On a non-opening post related comment-- all the birds listed under the "Extinct" page were around in DF's time frame.  Shall they be moved to the Aves page proper?

Oops, yeah, they should.  I moved them over wholesale without checking.
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Neonivek

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Re: The Ark Project - Please Participate!
« Reply #313 on: January 18, 2010, 12:12:13 am »

It is going to take me a while to transfer the creatures I added to their correct locations :P
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Eagle0600

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Re: The Ark Project - Please Participate!
« Reply #314 on: January 18, 2010, 04:13:43 am »

As for the color/colour conundrum, why don't you simply release two versions? It would be a hell of a lot more user-base friendly that way (Americans aren't the only people who play DF).
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