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[Vester]

Technically, the verse Ampersand mentioned is more in reference to the time dilation thing, but to me it seems more like an emphasis that God is eternal.

The verse goes something like "A thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, like a watch in the night."

But this is a bit offtopic.

[Tack]

I generally think with the belief that once you come to the realisation that god - or the christian god, who I was brought up to believe in - is just as likely as any other spectral or spiritual life-guiding being, you can believe in whatever you want, because they are just as likely to be true. Unless, of course, you're a believer in the "small gods - American gods" theory, in which case, meh. I'd hang out with Mr Wednesday.

So, basically, the idea of a god on a computer is as plausible as the thought of a god with a quiver full of lightning bolts. No matter what you believe in, you will probably go to the same afterlife.

So - if you have the belief in NO god, and instead believe in an afterlife where your thoughts and personalies are electronically sent through to a different reality or universe, where you exist as a spectral form made up of only the memory of what you were before, then it's possibly the same Ideals. As they say, nothing dies, it is just changed. Therefore, when you lose the unknown 26 grams upon death (I think that's the exact amount.) it could be you losing your "soul", or, the digital imprints that were once ingrained upon the cells of your brain, and are moved to be ingrained upon something else.

And therefore, if you believe in a god which can take your digital imprints, and use them to place inside a host of electronics, then your beliefs - that you are a human, that you have brown hair - could cause your simulated identity to manifest - leading to heaven, or, the recycle bin. So it's entirely possible that we are an incredibly intelligent AI simulation program that has been made in order to learn and evolve for a purpose, or for entertainment. When you think about it, with the invention of Spore, we currently have the capability to make things evolve while in a computer - if we were to input a variety of "codes" like natural selection and such, perhaps they would grow to eventually be the advanced civilisation we are today, which connects through the internet to post on a forum, when there is millions of billions of people stored on a single centimeter squared of computer space.

Screws with your mind, dunnit?


Woah. That's the second most wordy Theological speech I've made in my life. Also, I'm an agnostic and a Steevist.

[Ampersand]

"(Allah) Rules the cosmic affair from the heavens to the Earth. Then this affair travels to Him a distance in one day, at a measure of one thousand years of what you count." [32:5]

I really wish people would try to research things a bit before posting things like that.

You really, really, reallllllly have to fudge the numbers to get a number anywhere close to the speed of light using that quotation.

You don't have to fudge the numbers very much.
1 day = 24 hours
1 year is by the Islamic lunar year = 12 lunar orbits, because that was the SI for region it was written
Thus, it says distance traveled by angels in one Earth day = 12*1000 lunar orbits.

There's nothing to really fudge.

Being non-unique to the Qur'an should make it more accurate, as there's more references. Calculating with modern mathematics gets the answer accurately, as it should. You shouldn't be able to get a right answer with flawed math. The units of measurement are lunar years and a physical Earth day. There is no passage at all claiming that the Sun orbits the Earth; you just made that up. The adhoc number is also very, very specific.

Occam's Razor, buddy.. go with the simplest solution and you get the right answer.


Anyway, the exact number is not at all the point. Yeah, I think the concept of demiurges was what I meant. Didn't know about it until Vester mentioned it

The verse (and similar Christian verses?) doesn't say that "the affair travels to Him instantly". It mentions a very high speed, but not infinitely high. The whole point of my post was that God doesn't control the world 100%. He doesn't have to keep it all in his head, that's what the servants are for. But it makes me wonder - are the servants akin to neurons in our own head, or are they an external thing?

Thank you for not reading my post.

The argument fails Occams Razor, which is not "The simplest solution is most often correct", the popular but incorrect version, but is "Do not unnecessarily multiply entities."

In any case. The argument is that the distance traveled by the 'angels' as you put it is equal to the distance the moon travels around the earth in 1000 orbits. So how far does the moon travel in a thousand orbits? Should be easy enough to figure out.

The diameter of the orbit of the moon around the earth is roughly 768,934 Kilometers

768,934*pi = 2,415,677.41 Kilometers

2,415,677.41*1000= 2,415,677,410 Kilometers, or 2,415,677,410,000 meters.

This is how far the angels apparently travel in a day.

So, 2,415,677,410,000 meters/day = 27,959,229.3 meters per second. Which is not at all close to the speed of light. Multiplied by twelve, 335,510,752 meters per second. Still way off.

[Vester]

Spoiler: Spoilered for length (click to show/hide)

I generally think with the belief that once you come to the realisation that god - or the christian god, who I was brought up to believe in - is just as likely as any other spectral or spiritual life-guiding being, you can believe in whatever you want, because they are just as likely to be true. Unless, of course, you're a believer in the "small gods - American gods" theory, in which case, meh. I'd hang out with Mr Wednesday.

So, basically, the idea of a god on a computer is as plausible as the thought of a god with a quiver full of lightning bolts. No matter what you believe in, you will probably go to the same afterlife.

So - if you have the belief in NO god, and instead believe in an afterlife where your thoughts and personalies are electronically sent through to a different reality or universe, where you exist as a spectral form made up of only the memory of what you were before, then it's possibly the same Ideals. As they say, nothing dies, it is just changed. Therefore, when you lose the unknown 26 grams upon death (I think that's the exact amount.) it could be you losing your "soul", or, the digital imprints that were once ingrained upon the cells of your brain, and are moved to be ingrained upon something else.

And therefore, if you believe in a god which can take your digital imprints, and use them to place inside a host of electronics, then your beliefs - that you are a human, that you have brown hair - could cause your simulated identity to manifest - leading to heaven, or, the recycle bin. So it's entirely possible that we are an incredibly intelligent AI simulation program that has been made in order to learn and evolve for a purpose, or for entertainment. When you think about it, with the invention of Spore, we currently have the capability to make things evolve while in a computer - if we were to input a variety of "codes" like natural selection and such, perhaps they would grow to eventually be the advanced civilisation we are today, which connects through the internet to post on a forum, when there is millions of billions of people stored on a single centimeter squared of computer space.

Screws with your mind, dunnit?


Woah. That's the second most wordy Theological speech I've made in my life. Also, I'm an agnostic and a Steevist.

(People will take issue with that assertion about Spore, I'm sure)

Have you read Arthur C. Clarke's (RIP) stuff? In 2001, some of the key players are these vastly advanced

Spoiler: story spoilers, obviously (click to show/hide)

beings of pure light/energy who have evolved so far that their entire form and ethos is directed towards information and learning, which they store in, apparently, themselves.

Also: they're apparently responsible for the evolution of the human race. Basically, they're God in plural

[Neruz]

I feel i should add that life after death, so to speak, requires that the consciousness be seperate from the nervous system. If the consciousness is not seperate, then in order to put someone in heaven you would need to relocate their nervous system to heaven.


Lets say God recreates your body and nervous system, great, there's now a perfect copy of you in heaven.

Pity it isn't actually you.

[Tack]

Isn't that what I said? Besides, if the brain is perfectly scriptured there, then that is how it will act. It will be you. Why do you believe there is a conciousness in the first place? Maybe our brain just runs according to our personalities and memories and beliefs.


And yes. That has nothing to do with spore. I don't know why I brought up spore. I guess it was to say that people have made a program which (VERY ROUGHLY) follows the idea of evolution. It wouldn't be hard to take the creature faze, and make it so integrated that it becomes a variety of AI races. And when AI is alive too long, it develops a conciousness. How Ironic would it be that our mind had evolved enough for us to think that our mind may have evolved enough for us to think on whether or not we are a product of AI!

[Firnagzen]

A few obligatory links.

But yeah. Something else that's obligatory for these forums: Losing is fun. Oh dear.

[Vester]

I feel i should add that life after death, so to speak, requires that the consciousness be seperate from the nervous system. If the consciousness is not seperate, then in order to put someone in heaven you would need to relocate their nervous system to heaven.


Lets say God recreates your body and nervous system, great, there's now a perfect copy of you in heaven.

Pity it isn't actually you.

There was a short discussion of that in the afterlife thread, actually.

[Neruz]

Isn't that what I said? Besides, if the brain is perfectly scriptured there, then that is how it will act. It will be you. Why do you believe there is a conciousness in the first place? Maybe our brain just runs according to our personalities and memories and beliefs.

No it won't; if i make a small statue, and then perfectly duplicate that statue, then destroy the original, is the duplicate the original?

Of course not, it's a perfect duplicate yes, but it is not the original statue. Sure, the copy of you will look like you, sound like you, act like you, have your memories. But it won't be you.

You will die, you will cease to exist. Your copy will get to experience the afterlife, which is nice, for him.

[Tack]

And YOU won't know. For all YOU will believe, you ARE the copy. Every action you take will be that which the clone takes, which YOU would take anyway.

[IndonesiaWarMinister]

335,510,752 meters per second.

It's fairly accurate, when you take account that THE ORBIT BETWEEN MOON AND EARTH HAS NOT BEING CALCULATED YET.

And... You know, in 600 AD, there is no mathematicians, at least in Arabia.

[Neruz]

And YOU won't know. For all YOU will believe, you ARE the copy. Every action you take will be that which the clone takes, which YOU would take anyway.

Of coure you won't know, you'll be dead.

Like i said; nice for the copy, not so good for you.

[Tack]

DAMN IT! My post didn't post cos of maintenance, now I have to write the whole bloody thing again!

No. Bugger that. You win, Neruz.


Also, I said moved, not copied.

[Rose]

*cough*the prestige*cough*

[Neruz]

DAMN IT! My post didn't post cos of maintenance, now I have to write the whole bloody thing again!

No. Bugger that. You win, Neruz.


Also, I said moved, not copied.

That's the thing though, how are you moving? The physical structure clearly doesn't move, so in order for an afterlife to work, the 'entity' or consciousness needs to be seperated from the physical medium. And that gets sticky.