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[kaijyuu]

I really feel I'd be more respectful to someone by telling them to fuck off than I would be by not saying anything at all. I don't do this because of ire toward them or anything; I do it because I'm afraid of confronting them on it. I'm a coward in this very specific circumstance and it's caused problems recently.

I know I ended up very angry at you for quite a while when you did something like this, and it still makes me upset thinking about it. It really is a terrible and frustrating thing to do to people, and doesn't really seem to work out well for you either often, or so it seems. :/
I know you're a good person, usually, but you do often seemed so scared of potential conflict that you end up hurting people who don't deserve it.

I'd much rather get punched in the face than have someone do this to me - it hurts a hell of a lot less.

Also, writing this post made me realize a lot of those bad vibes are still lingering. I'm gonna have to clear those out sooner or later. I really thought I'd completely gotten over it. >_>

Yup. Apologies for being so rude

[Lightningfalcon]

Let's see... how about never being able to tell if people are mad at me or at all interested in what I'm saying?  I constantly think people are mad when they aren't.

I went to two or three years of therapy when I was  in kindergarten/elementary school, and I still have a very hard time telling facial expressions.  I can kind of tell if people are interested, but that's only if I've known them for a very long time. 

[Vector]

Vector's autistic and one of the defining traits of autism is inability to read facial expressions, so I really doubt she's being paranoid.

Yes, I'm aware of that Kaijyuu, I'm autistic too, I'm also aware that there's a certain syndrome some ASD people suffer from where they associate issues they have as being issues they have because they're ASD. I've had issues with this, as have people I've known AFK.

I don't know, I have documented evidence where they asked us to draw facial expressions in kindergarten and I drew ones that were total mismatches of the emotion?  And similar tests I took a couple years ago when I got something like 50% identifying cartoon drawings of 10 different faces?  And the way people act when they make a face and I don't get it?  And people constantly telling me "now give X a hug" or whatever or "THAT WAS A JOKE."

Look, what I'm trying to say is that I've been the world long enough to know the difference between "we miscommunicated and you, O normal person, thought it wasn't too clear" and "we miscommunicated and now you, O normal person, are very loudly wondering what's wrong with me."

I am okay when it comes down to context, because there's usually lots of information.  But when it comes down to reading individual facial expressions, I just can't.  Yet.

I usually can't tell the difference between disgust and anger, or fear and surprise, or happiness and surprise, or fear and sadness, or worry and anger.  Whoopie-dip.  So in general I'm operating on positive vs. not-positive for my emotion identification (i.e. "is this person obviously upset or not").  And that's kind of it.


*raises hand*

Another one of those annoying people who flakes out in the middle of conversations.  ... I get too tired to be polite, and often forget to drag myself online for a curt signoff.

[GlyphGryph]

Vector, have you actually ever really dedicated yourself to learning? I mean, the facial expressions problem certainly isn't an easy one to manage manually, but from what I understand it's definitely doable and it doesn't seem like something you wouldn't be able to manage. I assume the "yet" is that you have some plan on trying in the near future?

[Pnx]

Look, what I'm trying to say is that I've been the world long enough to know the difference between "we miscommunicated and you, O normal person, thought it wasn't too clear" and "we miscommunicated and now you, O normal person, are very loudly wondering what's wrong with me."

I am okay when it comes down to context, because there's usually lots of information.  But when it comes down to reading individual facial expressions, I just can't.  Yet.

I usually can't tell the difference between disgust and anger, or fear and surprise, or happiness and surprise, or fear and sadness, or worry and anger.  Whoopie-dip.  So in general I'm operating on positive vs. not-positive for my emotion identification (i.e. "is this person obviously upset or not").  And that's kind of it.

Thing is, what you're describing right here sounds pretty normal to me. This sounds exactly like the kind of everyday behaviours and issues I see some of the most "ordinary" people on earth deal with.

It might be that I have perceptions that have been skewed by the kind of people I've hung around with and the kind of person I am, but I seriously think this isn't just a ASD problem you're having here, because quite frankly, normal people are surprisingly dysfunctional.

[Mephansteras]

Vector's autistic and one of the defining traits of autism is inability to read facial expressions, so I really doubt she's being paranoid.

Yes, I'm aware of that Kaijyuu, I'm autistic too, I'm also aware that there's a certain syndrome some ASD people suffer from where they associate issues they have as being issues they have because they're ASD. I've had issues with this, as have people I've known AFK.

I don't know, I have documented evidence where they asked us to draw facial expressions in kindergarten and I drew ones that were total mismatches of the emotion?  And similar tests I took a couple years ago when I got something like 50% identifying cartoon drawings of 10 different faces?  And the way people act when they make a face and I don't get it?  And people constantly telling me "now give X a hug" or whatever or "THAT WAS A JOKE."

Look, what I'm trying to say is that I've been the world long enough to know the difference between "we miscommunicated and you, O normal person, thought it wasn't too clear" and "we miscommunicated and now you, O normal person, are very loudly wondering what's wrong with me."

I am okay when it comes down to context, because there's usually lots of information.  But when it comes down to reading individual facial expressions, I just can't.  Yet.

I usually can't tell the difference between disgust and anger, or fear and surprise, or happiness and surprise, or fear and sadness, or worry and anger.  Whoopie-dip.  So in general I'm operating on positive vs. not-positive for my emotion identification (i.e. "is this person obviously upset or not").  And that's kind of it.


*raises hand*

Another one of those annoying people who flakes out in the middle of conversations.  ... I get too tired to be polite, and often forget to drag myself online for a curt signoff.

Maybe you should learn to identify Microexpressions? Difficult to do, but once you have it down you'd not only know what people are actually feeling, you'd also be even better at identifying lies.

[Vector]

Vector, have you actually ever really dedicated yourself to learning? I mean, the facial expressions problem certainly isn't an easy one to manage manually, but from what I understand it's definitely doable and it doesn't seem like something you wouldn't be able to manage. I assume the "yet" is that you have some plan on trying in the near future?

There's a reason why I used to spend 12 hours a day playing Mafia, and that was because I needed work of that intensity for multiple months in order to conceive of the idea that someone might be lying.  Unfortunately, I only learned I had a problem four years ago, and there was not only a lot of catchup to do, but I was also getting a degree.

I haven't dedicated myself specifically to facial expressions because I've never figured out anything that stuck (and was frying other sea animals), but I was thinking recently that learning to draw them would kill two birds with one stone.  So maybe I'll start experimenting with that.

[Devling]

What's your favourite?

[GlyphGryph]

I haven't dedicated myself specifically to facial expressions because I've never figured out anything that stuck (and was frying other sea animals), but I was thinking recently that learning to draw them would kill two birds with one stone.  So maybe I'll start experimenting with that.

This is actually a pretty good idea, I think. Try to use live models if you can. But you'll probably want to do some supporting stuff during the process, attack the problem from multiple fronts. I think there's a flash-card-esque program out there to train just this sort of ability, I'll see if I can find it for you. If not I'm sure we'd be happy to help make one for you...

Or you could build one as an open source project, simultaneously getting valuable job experience and helping out those in the same situation.

Edit: Ugh. These are all fookin terrible. They should at least include basic descriptions of the stuff you're supposed to be looking for, and the sample sizes are just so incredibly small they are useless. And also I keep getting them wrong. >_>

Edit2: Okay, this stuff is all extraordinarily godawful. I'm sure you could get some people to help you out without it either in real life or here via webcam or something. Quite a few games you could play with this sort of thing that could be pretty fun, especially when you start getting into the more complicated expressions. ^_^

[Vector]

Didn't your mafia messing about lead to my second favourite insult: 'fuck off you fucking fucker fuck :I'?

Why yes, that was me


I'm specifically going with drawing because

a. It means I have to actively engage with the problem and process it
b. I can do it by myself and I find this all incredibly humiliating.

"Then why are you talking about it here, they asked?"

Well, because I need to learn how to talk about these things and this is good for my growth.  So: maybe later, when I've worked on it a bit on my own.

[Lord Shonus]

Once again, somebody I just met assumed that I had Asperger's, because I don't get on well with people. I'm getting extremely sick of people making that false assumption. My social issues are primarily caused by 99% of the non-family people I've met shitting all over me for the past 20 years. It's almost as annoying as people constantly assuming I'm gay because I don't have a girlfriend (I've tried, but asking a woman out tends to result in the screaming, or the slapping, or the spitting), disdain the macho bullshit that most men my age tend to engage in (which I consider an asinine sign of immaturity), and tend to simply ignore petty annoyances instead of becoming aggressively angry (because I'm afraid of the damage that I would cause if I let my darker side out to play.)

[GlyphGryph]

b. I can do it by myself and I find this all incredibly humiliating.

You are unlikely to find many convenient sources of handily labeled images explaining how and why an emotion is represented. If you aren't able to accurately identify the emotion, how is learning it's tells going to be effective practice?

...Are you going to use us as a mechanical turk?

[SalmonGod]

Didn't your mafia messing about lead to my second favourite insult: 'fuck off you fucking fucker fuck :I'?

Why yes, that was me


I'm specifically going with drawing because

a. It means I have to actively engage with the problem and process it
b. I can do it by myself and I find this all incredibly humiliating.

"Then why are you talking about it here, they asked?"

Well, because I need to learn how to talk about these things and this is good for my growth.  So: maybe later, when I've worked on it a bit on my own.

Scott McCloud's Making Comics has a really excellent section on body language.  It may be useful.  If I remember, I'll dig it out tonight and re-evaluate that claim.  McCloud is very analytical.  Breaks everything down into the most basic principles he can.  I learned things about body language that I could probably subconsciously recognize, but didn't really *know*.

I don't really have trouble reading people, but sometimes people get really frustrated because they say they can't read me.  I'm normally very dry.  Use very little body language and force myself to use facial expressions.  Text is my preferred method of communication.  When I want to say anything really important, I'll do it in writing.

[Vector]

Hmm.

This could actually be fun.  I could ask members to take photos of them looking [EMOTION], you guys get polled for which is the best example, and then I draw it.

I am a terrible artist, but it could be kind of hilarious.

[Pnx]

I've already made some attempts at drawing people in the photoshare thread... Didn't really go well for me.