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[RedKing]

Also,
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/04/09/why-are-people-changing-their-minds-about-same-sex-marriage/

This is incredibly, terrible disheartening.

Wait, what? 

[Graknorke]

Also,
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2013/04/09/why-are-people-changing-their-minds-about-same-sex-marriage/

This is incredibly, terrible disheartening.

Wait, what? 

I find it amusing that out of religious people who think homosexuality is a sin; the majority want gay marriage legalised.

EDIT: Which is to say, I agree with you in that I don't see any sad.

[GlyphGryph]

Let me give you an analogy.

Say you were a black person, and you tried to join a fancy, exclusive golf club, only to be told that they don't accept black people at the club because they are dirty, inferior subhumans who don't deserve respect.

Incensed, you launch an extended one-man campaign to win hearts and minds, changing opinions one person at a time. After a decade of pressure, you reapply to the club and are welcomed with open arms.

Happy with your victory, you join, and one day make a comment to the extent of how you are glad that they changed their views about black people being dirty, inferior subhumans. They immediately correct you. "Oh, no, no! We still believe that, and that they have no right to be a member of this club, we've just decided that in getting to know you, in particular, why, you're practically white behind that dark skin, so we decided to make an exception."

Would you feel... hopeful? Would you still be proud of what you achieved? Did you really achieve anything?

The overwhelming meaning of that article is that the vast majority of people still don't see any value in equality, or any reason not to abuse and oppress and limits the rights of those are unpopular and unliked. The only thing that has changed is that in this one, particular situation, people have decided that the issue effects them personally and negatively (by harming those that they like) and thus they have decided to support it.

People do not support gay marriage because it is right. They do not support it because all people deserve equality. They do not support it because they have no business restricting the rights of others. They support solely because they want to help their friends, and if you belong to a similarly oppressed group from which they do NOT happen to have any friends, they will gleefully revert to their standard possession of "Who gives a fuck your not worth anything because your suffering doesn't effect me personally".

It's just a sobering reminder that even when doing the right thing, people can be absolutely fucking terrible.

The full and complete extent of our accomplishments is that being gay is now considered normal.

[Telgin]

Also, the symptoms I exhibit when I do not get enough sleep are indistinguishable from severe depression.

Considering I'm the same way, I'm guessing this is normal.

[Euld]

*sigh* my artistic abilities are improving but I still have so much to improve on :/  It seems like I make a big improvement, then my work is shown in class and people are like "... ... ... uh, more lights and darks... ... ..."

[RedKing]

Let me give you an analogy.

Say you were a black person, and you tried to join a fancy, exclusive golf club, only to be told that they don't accept black people at the club because they are dirty, inferior subhumans who don't deserve respect.

Incensed, you launch an extended one-man campaign to win hearts and minds, changing opinions one person at a time. After a decade of pressure, you reapply to the club and are welcomed with open arms.

Happy with your victory, you join, and one day make a comment to the extent of how you are glad that they changed their views about black people being dirty, inferior subhumans. They immediately correct you. "Oh, no, no! We still believe that, and that they have no right to be a member of this club, we've just decided that in getting to know you, in particular, why, you're practically white behind that dark skin, so we decided to make an exception."

Would you feel... hopeful? Would you still be proud of what you achieved? Did you really achieve anything?

The overwhelming meaning of that article is that the vast majority of people still don't see any value in equality, or any reason not to abuse and oppress and limits the rights of those are unpopular and unliked. The only thing that has changed is that in this one, particular situation, people have decided that the issue effects them personally and negatively (by harming those that they like) and thus they have decided to support it.

People do not support gay marriage because it is right. They do not support it because all people deserve equality. They do not support it because they have no business restricting the rights of others. They support solely because they want to help their friends, and if you belong to a similarly oppressed group from which they do NOT happen to have any friends, they will gleefully revert to their standard possession of "Who gives a fuck your not worth anything because your suffering doesn't effect me personally".

It's just a sobering reminder that even when doing the right thing, people can be absolutely fucking terrible.

The full and complete extent of our accomplishments is that being gay is now considered normal.

So....you're basically upset that people are being tolerant despite their personal disapproval for something rather than America having had a mass conversion to LUVIN TEH GAY? 

It's like saying that people who believe in tolerating bronies despite their not understanding it and having no interest in MLP are hypocritical assholes for not wholeheartedly embracing the concept.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

That's not really the impression that I got from the article at all, Glyph. That they changed their views based on contact with gay people doesn't mean they're "just making an exception".

[Lagslayer]

tl,dr it's the monkeysphere argument.

[Frumple]

GG, on one hand I hear ya'...

... but on the other, getting folks to that point, where they're at least recognizing exceptions or doing it to help friends rather than because it's the right thing to do, is generally acknowledged to be kinda' "Step One.", as well as one of the most effective methods we have for making inroads against ingrained discrimination.

It's been a year or two now, but last time I was updated on current "best methods" for trying to break down bigotry in general on a practical level, literally the best thing we've got is to get in on that personal level, get them to think of people near them as exceptions, and get at least that much done. Because from what psych and sociology has seen, that's about the only fucking way at all to break into the mindset surrounding bigotry. Nothing else works. There's not really an option two.

S'just... I'unno. Yeah, it's kinda' depressing, but on the same hand that's kinda' what we're dealt with. That's how humans work. It takes the stars aligning and pretty specific and consistent training to get people to give a shit about what's right instead of what helps them and theirs. It's just... should implies can? Or something. Being depressed about not getting better results would imply that better results are possible and that's... arguable.

My aside would be that a certain degree of misanthropy is probably understandable for genuinely ethical individuals. Our brains are kinda' rat bastards in a lot of ways. You have to break what a human is and reshape it for there to be something moral left over, because that doesn't seem to really be our default state.

I'unno. Disjointed, tired. Been awake too damn long. That article and your reaction does actually leave me a little hopeful, because it points to improvement and eventual greater improvement. Another couple of generations and that particular issue will no longer be one. You're probably not going to get it happening because of any ethical reasons and it's not going to expand to a general non-discrimination thing (because that would likely take outright social engineering on a very, very blunt level, because humans just don't fucking work like that naturally. In group/out group bullshit is just how the general cookie crumbles), but if we get the in-group to expand sufficiently we can at least get something approaching a functional equivalent for that particular issue, which is better than it is now.

And then hopefully you start work on whatever other group is being targeted, and just keep doing that. It would take some seriously heavy handed shit or absolutely incredible social change the like of which has never been seen to actually break our tribalism inclinations (which is more or less the root cause for xenophobia/bigotry) for something less conducive to discrimination.

E: And then Lagslayer ninja'd me like a boss. I really wish I could take a nap right now

[GlyphGryph]

...Nothing else works. There's not really an option two...

...That's how humans work...
...Being depressed about not getting better results would imply that better results are possible and that's... arguable...

...it's not going to expand to a general non-discrimination thing...because humans just don't fucking work like that naturally...

This is exactly the bits this article reminded my of that I found depressing and disheartening. Sometimes I like to pretend we're making reasonable progress at not being terrible, and this pretty much kills that.

So....you're basically upset that people are being tolerant despite their personal disapproval for something rather than America having had a mass conversion to LUVIN TEH GAY? 

It's like saying that people who believe in tolerating bronies despite their not understanding it and having no interest in MLP are hypocritical assholes for not wholeheartedly embracing the concept.

This is not it at all. Not even close. It has nothing to do with embracing. When did I say anything about embracing? It has to do with affording basic respect to other fucking humans beings because they are human beings, not just because they're your friends and fuck anyone who isn't because hey, if they belong to a group you dislike they might as well not be human, right? Guess what - that's the standard for humanity, and accepting homosexuals hasn't changed it in the slightest, it just means homosexuals have finally gotten invited to the popular-kids-who-deserve-to-have-basic-human-rights side of the fence, rather the being an indictment of there being a people-who-deserve-to-have-basic-human-rights fence to begin with like one would hope.

It just demonstrates how incredibly narrow a victory it was. And if history is any indication, the fence will shut right up behind them, and the majority of formerly persecuted homosexuals will turn and jeer at those still trapped on the other side of the fence to secure their place in the mainstream.

[RedKing]

....I'm not trying to be dismissive, but...

Go home, Glyph, you're sleep-deprived.

I see that article as a tremendous positive, and I'll leave it at that.

[Frumple]

Th'last bit GG... yeah, pretty much. The fence will slam and we'll be back to trying to wedge it open for whoever's left, until there's no one left. At least until we shove someone else over the fence, at which point the process repeats. It's... not an easy task, or a small one, or a sure one. It's monumentally fucking incredibly difficult because, well, we're fighting thousands and thousands and thousands of years of cultural and quite likely biological impetus and for every step forward there's a fairly large chance it'll slide back. Only way we have at the moment to push the project forward is to keep at it. By and large it's worth fighting for, y'know? Th'project of improving a species is a large one with few gains and many setbacks, but... it's better than it was. Somewhat, in some ways. It time, it'll improve further, probably. Chance worth rolling the dice and investing the effort in, anyway.

Hopefully one of these days we'll get a decent ethics and psychology class-equivalent shoved somewhere early in the development process and actually start nipping this shit in the bud, but, well. So many practical barriers, auuu.

[Vector]

I'm willing to guess that he didn't come sit with me because I was obviously studying, which is something I had forgotten about--most of my friends eventually learn that studying typically means "I don't have anything else to do, so this is what I'm doing."

I'm thinking about copying out Rumi poems and slipping them under his door once in a while, though that might just come off as creepy instead of romantic, and I remember him saying at the beginning of this semester that he was getting over a breakup, so maybe I should skip it.

[Solifuge]

*sigh* my artistic abilities are improving but I still have so much to improve on :/  It seems like I make a big improvement, then my work is shown in class and people are like "... ... ... uh, more lights and darks... ... ..."

Well, to start, I understand. I know how much praise and encouragement helps me; I'm more or less a sucker for it. And when I put my heart and soul into a thing, for people to reply with criticism first, or primarily, or even exclusively... I know how that can feel like a slap in the face.

But it isn't. Really.

When I take a step back from my emotional investment (and... yeah, my need to be or feel appreciated. Which is a thing. >_< there actually is always room for improvement. And that's something I try to keep reminding myself as I work on things. Just because people don't see all the neat things I put into an act of creation, or get how this signifies a positive change for me and my artistic abilities, that doesn't mean it becomes less of an improvement for me. And, can it maybe be enough for me to know that it's an improvement? Can I be content to make art for me, and hope that I bring something to other people in the process?

[Descan]

I'm willing to guess that he didn't come sit with me because I was obviously studying, which is something I had forgotten about--most of my friends eventually learn that studying typically means "I don't have anything else to do, so this is what I'm doing."

I'm thinking about copying out Rumi poems and slipping them under his door once in a while, though that might just come off as creepy instead of romantic, and I remember him saying at the beginning of this semester that he was getting over a breakup, so maybe I should skip it.

To me, poetry and romantic crap is what you do -after- you've created a relationship, not before. Before seems creepy to me. >_>