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[Wrex]

If you are in a game where monks are considered OP a swashbuckler is not going to be a issue. Clearly these people are not hard core try hard powergamers. Most classes should work fine to be honest.

My ears are burning.



Frankly, they must be going up against some really weak enemies or be at a very low level to still remain relevant. Granted, if everything is relegated to "You hit it" or "you cast fireball" Or "you cast CLW", then they should be fine, as long as any number of creatures with useful SLAs are never encountered for any reason ever.

[Mlamlah]

For a lot of roleplayers out there power-gaming just ruins the fun of the game, every one should be able to have fun with dnd, not just op players. Half the reason dnd is so great is because it's easily accessible for most kinds of gamers as long as one has a good dm who takes effort to make it fun for everyone.

[Mlamlah]

My ears are burning.



Frankly, they must be going up against some really weak enemies or be at a very low level to still remain relevant. Granted, if everything is relegated to "You hit it" or "you cast fireball" Or "you cast CLW", then they should be fine, as long as any number of creatures with useful SLAs are never encountered for any reason ever.

It's all about intelligent gameplay and tactical thinking, any one can use their unique skill set to good effect if they play the individual encounters just as they are... unique and individual encounters, just as any style consider OP can be cancelled out by specific situations and smart villians.

[Wrex]

My ears are burning.



Frankly, they must be going up against some really weak enemies or be at a very low level to still remain relevant. Granted, if everything is relegated to "You hit it" or "you cast fireball" Or "you cast CLW", then they should be fine, as long as any number of creatures with useful SLAs are never encountered for any reason ever.

It's all about intelligent gameplay and tactical thinking, any one can use their unique skill set to good effect if they play the individual encounters just as they are... unique and individual encounters, just as any style consider OP can be cancelled out by specific situations and smart villians.

quote author=Mlamlah link=topic=42204.msg3606502#msg3606502 date=1347508218]
For a lot of roleplayers out there power-gaming just ruins the fun of the game, every one should be able to have fun with dnd, not just op players. Half the reason dnd is so great is because it's easily accessible for most kinds of gamers as long as one has a good dm who takes effort to make it fun for everyone.
[/quote]

D&D is not easily accesible unless you ignore as much of the rules as possible to keep the single classed fighter relevant. I'm not saying that's not a valid way to do things, but you really are playing a glorified RTD at that point. If you do that, avoid combat as much as humanly possible, and ignore diplomacy as a skill, then single classed fighters/monks/other trash work fine, provided you give them tons of homebrewed artifact treasure to compensate for the odd, unavoidable battle.

When monster's act according to their intelligence level, when they fight more than brutes who do little more than use melee or evocation spells, that is when things get....messy. 


Now, no amount of "tactical thinking" can compensate for the fighter/monk/assorted tier 5 garbage from being useless in an actual fight. Encounters AS WRITTEN decimate them in short order.

[Mlamlah]

Pretty much all fighter types get heavily nerfed in high/epic levels, i will say that, but the accessibility of dnd comes from the sheer number of possibilities in it's gameplay, anyone can play the game pretty much however they want. I personally have never had a problem with the mechanics versus. difficulty, i aim for everyone to have fun when i dm, and i manage that fine, so i guess it's a little difficult for me to see where you're coming from. I do disagree with your point that mechanics beats careful thought in dnd, intelligent gameplay will always win out, as long as the gamepplay isn't too linear.

[kaijyuu]

I prefer vastly more freeform games, since I'm not too interested in the wargame aspect. If the dice are rolled for anything other than A) choosing between two or more equally awesome possibilities, or B) the neat sound they make, it's too strict for me.

[Bauglir]

I love a good optimization argument as much as the next guy, but we should probably start a new thread if we want to talk about the relative power of various classes. I've seen this shit create divides along entire forums, although in fairness that was a D&D forum. In particular, though, I'd like to remind everyone that there is no wrong way to play the game, other than a way that makes it stop being fun. There is no amount of insistence about the inevitable outcome Y of playstyle X that will change that.

EDIT: Oh, right, I had happies. I am getting pretty good at doodling on the back of my hand glove while I'm in the biosafety hood waiting for more IV bags to prepare. I think I can draw better on that surface than on a flat one, disturbingly enough. Also, I had a rather spiffy idea for the RPG system I was homebrewing, which is going to pull it a lot closer to hybridizing computer and tabletop play, a goal I had been trying to come up with elegant ideas for (existing strategies, a la everything WotC tried to do for 4E, are far too kludgy and/or moneytrapping for my tastes). The downside is that it makes software development mandatory - the good news is that there's already open source software good enough for what I have in mind.

[Wrex]

Pretty much all fighter types get heavily nerfed in high/epic levels, i will say that, but the accessibility of dnd comes from the sheer number of possibilities in it's gameplay, anyone can play the game pretty much however they want. I personally have never had a problem with the mechanics versus. difficulty, i aim for everyone to have fun when i dm, and i manage that fine, so i guess it's a little difficult for me to see where you're coming from. I do disagree with your point that mechanics beats careful thought in dnd, intelligent gameplay will always win out, as long as the gamepplay isn't too linear.

Here is what I am stating: if all you have is d10 HP a level, and a stick made of metal, that's about all you can accomplish, I.E. Not much. Intelligent gameplay wins, but only when you have the resources to exploit in the first place.. Monk, and fighter, have no such resources at their disposal. Offering multiple solutions is no good if he can onl choose one, and even then fail terribly at it. Now, you might say "Well, Wrex you handsome lupine bastard, that's what a party is for!" And you would be right, if it wasn't for the fact that the Wizard or Cleric rapidly begin doing everything of importance themselves, leaving the poor mundanes as meer hanger-ons.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0


Should explain it better. When I DM, I outright ban Tiers 1-2 unless I know the person I am playing with. It is simply too risky to allow the sort of " One man party" shenaigans to occur. Tier 3-4 parties are capable of each shining in their own area of expertise without obliterating spacetime.


Also yes, taking this somewhere else would be preferable. Also, Haven't I seen you somewhere before Bauglir, minmax boards maybe?

[Bauglir]

That was the exact board I was referring to when I said I saw one split over this topic, actually. Back when it was BG and the Tiers arguments were going more fiercely than they do these days, now that everybody's opinion is calcified. Ah, memories.

Oh, shit, cross-contamination. I can no longer badmouth those guys over here. MY WORLDS ARE COLLIDING[/costanza]

[MaximumZero]

I'd like to dispute the uselessness of monks.

[Wrex]

That was the exact board I was referring to when I said I saw one split over this topic, actually. Back when it was BG and the Tiers arguments were going more fiercely than they do these days, now that everybody's opinion is calcified. Ah, memories.

Oh, shit, cross-contamination. I can no longer badmouth those guys over here. MY WORLDS ARE COLLIDING[/costanza]

If Sunic finds this board, oh man...That could get bad.

[kaijyuu]

Would this be a person I'd be beating over the head with a soapbox?

[Wrex]

Would this be a person I'd be beating over the head with a soapbox?

He would have posted a 17 page essay on why you are wrong. A brilliant guy, but more abrasive than a sandpaper coated chainsaw.

[MaximumZero]

Dear Zod. Imagine if he and Aqizzar collided.

[Wrex]

Dear Zod. Imagine if he and Aqizzar collided.

You would punch them?