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Author Topic: Generalized Theory of Magic  (Read 4220 times)

MagicJuggler

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2008, 09:10:24 am »

I always viewed "divine magic" as magic that was part of a religious system. Depending on the religion in question, it would involve bringing forth rain, making the sun shine brighter, or turning your opponents into pillars of salt. Arcane magic I always viewed as being practiced independently of a divine influence as though it were some form of mystical science.

As for alchemy, we already have the alchemist's lab so we know things will be more useful later on. I would like to see more abilities to mix and match materials together (e.g. mixing saltpeter and charcoal at an alchemist's lab) including vermin and plant extracts.

Finally, fetish magic might be an option. As in binding spirits into items for appropriate effects. E.g. binding a fire imp into a mace that it could shoot fire.
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Tormy

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2008, 09:21:30 am »

I wasn't sure as to whether I wanted to resurrect this post or whether I should start another one. In the end I chose to resurrect.

It's better to necro a thread, so it was a good choice to post in this.
The problem is, that we have like 20+ topics about magic at least so far, and basically everything has been said already.
Take a look at this topic what I've created for example, it's an interesting read:
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=24622.0

My take on Divine magic:
WoW's divine system describes my idea very well ->

The divine magic are forms of magic on faith in gods or spirits. [Thus linked to religions] Divine magic is all about healing and protective spells, practitioners of divine magic are at the vanguard of the gods' efforts to ensure their peoples' survival.
Though the sources of divine power are varied, its use has one constant: faith. Effectively wielding divine power requires tremendous conviction; the dedication required to achieve such perfect faith is a lifelong pursuit. Unlike arcane spellcasters who believe that power exists to be taken, divine spellcasters must constantly affirm that they are worthy of their gifts. They must be certain that they are properly honoring their gods, philosophies, ancestors or convictions. Perfect faith requires intense training and constant testing, which continues throughout the practitioner's lifetime.
[Some examples, that what kind of units should be able to use divine magic: shamans, clerics, paladins]
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 09:43:46 am by Tormy »
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Granite26

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2008, 12:51:52 pm »

That's one of the reasons I like the managed 'all in one' threads.  They keep the subjects that get a bajillion suggestions all in one place, so that, in theory, you can point to it and say 'THIS' is where it's all at.

Interesting fact : Priests were forbidden to spill the blood of men.  So they used clubs.  Hence D&D clerics.  (Which is why I HATED the random weapon restrictions in 3.0, etc)

as far as magic, flavor and systems should be separated.

Sunday

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2008, 01:59:25 pm »

Yay!  Another magic thread!

I don't have a thought out system of magic.  I'd just like to say that I like the idea of dwarven magic being both the most powerful and the most unpredictable (this, of course, is assuming that each race has a different magic system).  Which is why I think it should be linked to artifacts exclusively, with completely random effects possibly based on the materials used to make the artifact. 

Of course, I also wouldn't mind something like Burning Wheel's magic system - each race has a different stat (in BW dwarves have Greed, elves Grief, goblins Hate, and humans Faith) each with a different way of using it, and very different flavors of magic.
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Neonivek

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2008, 02:25:43 pm »

"Divine magic is all about healing and protective spells"

Well not exactly, this is only as so far as many of the Player classes within the game (Excluding Warlocks who are using Divine magic except are often excluded because they get it from evil sources).

Anyhow as Ive said many times I don't want or feel like "Divine Magic" should ever be in the dirrect hands of anyone. Certainly yes there is prayer and asking divine assistance. I feel as if it should be up to the god and especially its personality, how much it could favor that individual, Maybe the gods power itself, if the situation deserves his attention, and many other factors. Sure a devout worshiper, Deathbed convert, or even an unrelated adventurer could ask for aid but it is up to the god not only if they will help but how they will help and if such aid comes at a cost.

Yeah I know I used feel a lot, In the end it is really Toady's choice and baring a rather large mistake Ill support him anything he does with respect to divinity.
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alfie275

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2008, 04:27:21 pm »

Sorry if this has not much to do withit but I have some ideas I have seen / made about how magic should affect stuff:

Adventure mode:

Magic is a skill like Strength, maybe Magic Strength? The higher this skill the less fatigue magic uses . This would increase the more you use magic so in theory if an adventurer practiced for ages they could levitate a lake or something but grinding that much would be boring.

Magic can effect status of objects ie heat , health, material maybe, possibly duplication/conjuration(would require amount of fatigue equal to weight of object, considering magical strength of course) and it can put forces on objects like levitating stuff or sending arrows back at archer or moving water.

You do one time things such as igniting something or heating it really high, or continous which would affect it for a certain amount of time, this could be such that if you craeted a force area upwards you could make a fountain(of magma, lol ) or an oven using heat.

It would work like (pressing the captial letters) Magic Spontaneous Single object (choose object like with talking or looking) Heat (then enter heat and it goes red numbers if u cant do it).
This is how you would say, ignite a childs toy boat or something.
Whereas : Magic Continous(enter amount of time) Area(enter area) Force Up (enter force)
can make a lava fountain.

Magic does not happen till after the step you cast it ie you walk or press [.], so that a magic user can for example move water from a pond to an empty hole by making it go up and left continously then it will create the forces when u go forward a step.

Fortress mode:
You would have magic machines such as magic harvesters which havest magic from magical fault lines or magic generators which convert mechanical to magical energy.
This gets transported across verious types of materials either through walls or a sort of wire or pipe.
Then this gets used to make magical things happen with spell machines ie a magical water pumping machine for geting water up a 1 tile gap up a tower or a boiler for making steam. These would behave as if a continous spell is cast but until the energy is cut off.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 04:29:27 pm by alfie275 »
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MagicJuggler

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2008, 06:02:02 pm »

The way Age of Wonders did it, magic tended to congregate in specific points known as Nodes, and depending on the alignment of the Wizard, certain nodes would generate more mana. If not nodes, a generalized system of ley-lines could determine the general points of strongest magic influence. Areas such as volcanoes would prove more suitable for casting magic of fire and brimstone, while the necromancer's tower would be totally unsuited for casting fertility magic. Other game systems to use this style of magic include Mage: The Ascension, and Feng Shui, as well as some others.
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Mikademus

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2008, 06:06:22 pm »

"Divine magic is all about healing and protective spells"

Ever played Populous? This system might actually work in DF, too. What if the object of veneration is The Player, which by worship accrues mana until you can perform a miracle now and then. Like calling down a lighting strike, raising or lowering earth somewhere etc. Then religion too would have a nice effect - the more they worship the less they work.
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G-Flex

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2008, 06:28:54 pm »

Why would divine magic be about healing and protection if the deity involved has jack to do with those concepts? Just saying.
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Foa

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2008, 10:17:00 pm »

I say Divining;
  • Healing & Protecting & Cleansing ( Poison, Curses... )
... Enchanting;
  • Animation, Imbuing.
... Alchemy;
  • "Equivalent Exchange", "Break things down and reform it", "The process of creating things from other things with magic"

Stat-wise
( Rank/Strength )
  • [Rank] Powers/ [Toughness] Energy


So anything you may add/object/meme?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 10:24:23 pm by Foa »
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MagicJuggler

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2008, 10:27:11 pm »

Umm...divining means predicting the future...divination and whatnot.
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StrayCat

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2008, 10:01:53 am »


And who said thing about dwarves having magic? I'd figure them more Siege engining, skull-stomping, hammer-wielding, axe-tossing manic lunatics then magic users. You don't need magic to freeze someone solid when you're a dwarf. You use SCIENCE. Perhaps mixed with a teeny bit of applied magic, like alchemy, bastard child of chemistry and wizards.

 Dwarven magic is better known as short bearded guys kicking physics in the nuts.

I think dwarves should be capable of whatever the Z-level 17 they want to be capable of.
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Tormy

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2008, 11:37:59 am »

Why would divine magic be about healing and protection if the deity involved has jack to do with those concepts? Just saying.

Well yeah, you have a valid point there.  :D
Just one example:
"Shadow hunters invoke the names of dark gods, ancient powers whose legends are stained in cruelty and bloodshed, but who are also capable of benevolence when appeased."
So yeah, even destructive spells could fit well.
Basically it was my personal opinion, what I've posted about healing/protective spells and divine magic. If I think about divine or divine magic, I always connect those ideas of mine to paladins or similar "classes".  :)
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Virex

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2008, 05:09:59 pm »

To summarize and expand upon the original suggestion and several others that have come up (note, this contains a lot of my own interpretation):

Focus and Control
Magic is a form of energy that can be accessed by anyone, assuming that person has the right qualities. Two main characteristics are related to this: focus and control. Focus indicates how much magical power a being can actually call upon, and control determines it's ability to shape this raw power into something useful.

Both focus and control have a natural component, but they can be amplified in various ways, depending on the characteristics of the creature. This means that someone who has little natural focus could in theory become very powerful when given the right kind of stimulant. However, someone who's focus has been boosted strongly might not have enough control to actually shape it to their will, possibly resulting in a lot of fun.

The stimulants that can amplify control and focus depend highly on personal and racial characteristics and affinity for stimulants might develop over time. Here's a proposal of how this could be divided, though it's by no means complete:
In general, elves are more susceptible to natural substances, poetry and fine gestures.
Humans use many gestures, combined with words or sentences with mystical meaning. In general they are also more susceptible to gems and precious metal.
Dwarves are most susceptible to runes as well as different metal and stone types.
Goblins draw a lot of power from bones and meat and are also very susceptible to shiny objects.

Which stimulants a person is susceptible to is also very dependent upon their surroundings when they learn magic and what they come into contact with under pressure, though this may also affect it in a bad way.

The actual process of magic
Magic involves calling upon the free magical energy that is available and in general using one's body as a cataclyst. This means that someone with a high focus must also be able to contain and channel the energy and that the use of magic puts a big strain on the body and soul. As said, the use of magic costs as much constitution as actually doing it, though the drain is spread in another way and the mind is more capable of handling the strain.
Calling upon a God is a good way to ensure that you can channel the energy in a safe way. A god can either directly grant the request (which happens rarely) or aid the user by giving them the means to channel and contain magic needed to generate a similar effect. This means that priests relying on their gods must still be skilled in the way of magic to maximize this potential, and they need to have a very strong bond with their god, or else he might not help ;)

Using magic in this way also means that the body itself must be able to contain the magic. Magic users drawing upon the plane of fire to create a gout of fire will generally burn themselves, though the damage can be limited by feeding the magic through the fingertips or using other objects as focal points, even though it's not possible to completely eradicate the problem.

These focal points are usually light objects that can be pointed and held far from the body (for safety measures), meaning most magic users use a staff or wand (usually containing or made of a stimulant), even though a spear would also do. Pretty much any object could be used when it's in a good position or the magic user is skilled enough to channel the energy in the right way. Casters can of course aid each other by focusing their energy into the same focal points to generate effects a single magic user could not create, but this means that each of the casters must be trying to achieve the exact same effect, or else the spells will interfere.

As said, when creating a magical effect in any way, the caster must be able to imagine the process and the effect. Usually this requires a lot of knowledge, though many things can be learned through trail and error, especially when it comes to destructive effects and effects that change the properties of objects.

One last interesting thing about focal points is that it is possible to partially focus an effect into it. The spell has been evoked but not yet completed. This means that anyone who is capable of focusing enough energy into the focal point can unleash the spell. The amount of energy a magic user can focus before a spell actually "goes off" depends largely on their skill level. A champion magic user can imbue items in such a way that even someone who's completely oblivious about the ways of magic can use it.
Potions work in a similar way. They are a combination of stimulants that are known to generate specific effects in most and they are imbued with additional spells. The net effect of this combination is that the consumption of a potion will directly unleash the spells inside, at least in most cases. This also means that many potions are race specific and some are gender specific.
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Silverionmox

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2008, 05:50:52 pm »

Magic should also depend on the local circumstances (eg. performing fire magic in a swamp ought to be difficult) and the time (eg. vary with seasons and tides, lunar periods, night/day, etc.). A corollary is that the environment can be influenced by providing the right trappings, thereby opening the way for ritual magic (eg. decorating a room with skulls ought to make it more easy to call upon the god of death).

This would make magic more varied, less predictable and requires the player to pay attention to the place and time he confronts a particular obstacle.. instead of blasting it with fireballs until it disappears.
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