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Author Topic: Speardwarves  (Read 1082 times)

Phelix

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Speardwarves
« on: July 27, 2009, 02:10:04 am »

So I think speardwarves are cursed...... THEY ALWAYS DIE! and not even in combat.... they suffocate or drown or just die of generally stupid reasons...... ALL THE TIME.... I dont have this problem with any other profession but its like if I make a dwarf a speardwarf he WILL die... usually of something stupid and obnoxious (such as death in a sparring accident)

Is there a particular reason for my bad luck with the dwarves of pointy sticks?
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Hyndis

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Re: Speardwarves
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2009, 02:22:42 am »

Spears are very hit or miss. If they hit, they'll probably puncture multiple internal organs for instant death.

Otherwise, they'll probably just hit an arm or leg, or even get stuck in one without really causing all that much damage. Swords and axes chop limbs off, which has an instant and very dramatic effect. Hammers and maces can punt a goblin away, Matrix-style.

Spears just sort of poke at them.
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tomas1297

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Re: Speardwarves
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2009, 02:31:59 am »

Spears are good for swarming.
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Phelix

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Re: Speardwarves
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2009, 04:19:04 am »

well this was less about the effectiveness of speardwarves and more about how they die... for no apparent reason (or really dumb ones)

~So far~
Current Fort
2 Speardwarves dead after sparring sessions

Past Forts
3 more too sparring sessions (they are always fully armored)
2 too falling into a puddle and drowning (note: they were not in combat, and I have since made a habit of building stairs in every puddle on my map)

Ive trained maybe a total of 10 Spear dwarves.... which means 70% of my spear dwarves die too sparring accidents or falling in puddles.....
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Speardwarves
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2009, 04:28:30 am »

If you're having spear dwarves spar each other... they tend to get unlucky critical hits and poke out one another's heart, throat, and lungs.

It is rather unfortunate that crits work both ways.

Lordinquisitor

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Re: Speardwarves
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2009, 07:42:14 am »

How i use speardwarves depends on the foe.

Against creatures who feel pain a few speardwarves need no support.

Against painless creatures however, i send in some sword or axedwarves in first. After those are busy, my speardwarves are allowed to go in.

When painless or organless creatures attack i lock my spear(dwarves) away in the inner vault.

Against bowmen.. Magma. (Especially since spearman can use no shields..)

However i`m hoping that one day speardwarves will be able to form a phalanx.. You know spartan dwarves.  8)

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XSI

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Re: Speardwarves
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2009, 07:43:27 am »

I always just give the guard old iron spears from goblins(They aren't real military anyway), and I've found that when they aren't getting themselves killed, they are killing eachother in the barracks.

A single good hit with a spear can kill anything though, nothing survives a mangled brain when there's still an angry dwarf fighting them. Set them to use 2 weapons(1 kept as backup) to make them less vulnerable to losing their only weapon.

Spears are completely useless against skeletal and zombie opponents though.
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FrickenMoron

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Re: Speardwarves
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2009, 09:29:01 am »

God, way to talk around the question that was asked people. I think out of all the answers here only one or two are about the question itself.
Anyways, speardwarves sparring is always dangerous. Their critical hits will always impale internal organs, so it's way, way deadlier than all other forms of sparring. You basically have two ways to circumvent this:

a) don't start training speardwarves without having at least access to plate armor and silver/any other 50% ore. make silver/other 50% ore spears ONLY and use plate/chainmal for better protection.

b) Don't train speardwarves at all. put them on duty, and if they are off duty switch to another weapon via the weapons menu (dwarves can carry two weapons after all) When you send them into combat switch to the spears, they can gain exp that way too and you won't face any sparring injuries that way, at least not from spears.
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Hyndis

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Re: Speardwarves
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2009, 10:59:08 am »

The upside about sparring with spears is that you will have no cripples with bruised spines unable to spar.  :D
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Speardwarves
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2009, 12:10:03 pm »

I have trained speardwarves, spearmen, pikemen, and speargoblins successfully with a minimum of training deaths, and I train them the same way as any other military dwarf.

You need to train your dwarves to legendary in wrestling first, and then you need to outfit them in full plate armor before they even touch a weapon. Once they're at that point, it doesn't really matter the quality of the weapon you give them, but if you're worried, you can give them basic quality silver weapons.
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PencilinHand

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Re: Speardwarves
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2009, 12:42:07 pm »

I have trained speardwarves, spearmen, pikemen, and speargoblins successfully with a minimum of training deaths, and I train them the same way as any other military dwarf.

You need to train your dwarves to legendary in wrestling first, and then you need to outfit them in full plate armor before they even touch a weapon. Once they're at that point, it doesn't really matter the quality of the weapon you give them, but if you're worried, you can give them basic quality silver weapons.

Higher quality weapons are always better because the quality of a weapon affects the chance to hit in combat and to not hit while sparing.  So give them exceptional or masterwork silver spears, but otherwise your advice is pretty much spot on. 

1.  Legendary wrestler before any armor.
2.  Outfit with exceptional or masterwork steel armor(plate over chain) and shield + mace or war hammer(bronze, bismuth bronze, copper, silver from about worst to best)
3.  Legendary Macedwarf, Hammerdwarf, Shield user and Armor user (last one is optional really)
4.  Train spears(exceptional or masterwork silver)

I have never had a sparing death out of 2 dozen speardwarfs in my last 3 forts when I follow the above.  Also, be sure you put anyone who isn't a steel plate+chain+shield multi-legendary on patrol or give them crossbows else you will have casualties.

Also, the spears used in DF seem to be short spears such that dwarfs can use shields with them(mine seem to anyway).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 12:45:56 pm by PencilinHand »
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Granite26

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Re: Speardwarves
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2009, 12:45:45 pm »


Higher quality weapons are always better because the quality of a weapon affects the chance to hit in combat and to not hit while sparing.  So give them exceptional or masterwork silver spears, but otherwise your advice is pretty much spot on. 

Ref?

PencilinHand

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Re: Speardwarves
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2009, 12:50:15 pm »


Higher quality weapons are always better because the quality of a weapon affects the chance to hit in combat and to not hit while sparing.  So give them exceptional or masterwork silver spears, but otherwise your advice is pretty much spot on. 

Ref?
http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Quality#Effect_of_quality_on_weapon_skillv0.23.130.23a

It is an old reference and may not hold true after the changes to sparing etc in the upcoming release, but it is a reference.
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dogstile

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Re: Speardwarves
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2009, 10:00:16 pm »

its odd, my speardwarves rarely if ever die while sparring

train wrestler, armour and shield user up to legendary first, then spears

of course, you could also do what i do and get them legendary in every combat stat
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