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[Zangi]

If I wanted a skill based game in the category of shooter...  there is probably a 100 or so out there...  I acknowledge that with play and time, you do get better at the aim and twitch shots.  But yea... as I said... lots of shooters out there already...  nothing special.

Mass Effect is unique in that your character's aim is the equivalent of a shotgun without the shotgun blast when you don't have any skill in using it.  If I remember right, it also effects damage output somewhat?  Or am I thinking Fallout 3 right there?

And yea... Oblivion is a matter of opinion...

Alpha Protocol looks interesting...  at this point, I'm putting it in the category of shooter... with other stuff.  Interesting other stuff...

[Chutney]

Mass Effect is unique in that your character's aim is the equivalent of a shotgun without the shotgun blast when you don't have any skill in using it.  If I remember right, it also effects damage output somewhat?  Or am I thinking Fallout 3 right there?

It might effect accuracy, but really I didn't notice any difference. As long as you didn't hold down the fire button and let your accuracy circle get larger than the screen, you could pretty much hit things easily. And damage wasn't increased or decreased to any notable effect, that I remember. Maybe like, +25% damage throughout the entire skill, but it didn't effect the game play in any real way. You could beat the game with a pistol despite having no skills in it, I'm pretty sure.

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

In Oblivion difficulty only depends on the difficulty slider and whether or not you exploit the broken leveling system.  If you make a character that concentrates on combat skill alone (which is how the game is meant to be played), then it all depends on player skill.  If you make a character whose main skills are non combat, but you don't use them and just upgrade your combat skills, then the game becomes ridiculously easy.  If you make a character whose main skills are non-combat based and you do use them then the game becomes impossible. Increasing the difficulty bar just inversely increases/decreases the amount of damage you and your enemies take.

Fallout 3, whether you hit or not depends entirely on your twitch aiming skills, hence, it's player skill based.

Same with Mass Effect.

All of these games are action games calling themselves RPGs because the combat and pretty much everything else is player skill based rather than character skill based.

[Chutney]

In Oblivion difficulty only depends on the difficulty slider and whether or not you exploit the broken leveling system.  If you make a character that concentrates on combat skill alone (which is how the game is meant to be played), then it all depends on player skill.  If you make a character whose main skills are non combat, but you don't use them and just upgrade your combat skills, then the game becomes ridiculously easy.  If you make a character whose main skills are non-combat based and you do use them then the game becomes impossible. Increasing the difficulty bar just inversely increases/decreases the amount of damage you and your enemies take.

Fallout 3, whether you hit or not depends entirely on your twitch aiming skills, hence, it's player skill based.

Same with Mass Effect.

All of these games are action games calling themselves RPGs because the combat and pretty much everything else is player skill based rather than character skill based.

But your twitch-aiming skills are really a bad way to play the game. Playing through the game using only your skill really makes you feel like the developer is punishing you for playing the game wrong. Using VATS is how it's meant to be played, and that's based on your stats. So is weapon damaged. Twitch based aiming is an added bonus to the game.

And you said it yourself, Oblivions difficulty depends on your stats. I don't understand how making a character with noncombat skills but levels up combat skills (how does that work? You have only noncombat skills but you level up the combat? Isn't that a contradiction?) will make the game easier? And that's based on stats anyways, not player skill.
I don't actually understand any of the points you made on oblivion?

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

And you said it yourself, Oblivions difficulty depends on your stats. I don't understand how making a character with noncombat skills but levels up combat skills (how does that work? You have only noncombat skills but you level up the combat? Isn't that a contradiction?) will make the game easier? And that's based on stats anyways, not player skill.
I don't actually understand any of the points you made on oblivion?

Yes, Oblivion's design defies all reason.  That's the point.  Because everyone gets stronger when you level up, if you level up with a character that doesn't focus on combat skills, you suddenly won't be able to defeat anyone (even though you could before) if you don't contradict your character design and raise combat skills before you raise you main (noncombat) skills.  However, if you play the game the way the developers intended, that is, making an entirely combat focused character, then all that matters is your twitch skills.  From what I've heard VATS is only slightly affected by the character's skill, and it's an an idiotic addition anyway that's just another version of bullet time, now with autoaiming.

[Zironic]

In Oblivion difficulty only depends on the difficulty slider and whether or not you exploit the broken leveling system.  If you make a character that concentrates on combat skill alone (which is how the game is meant to be played), then it all depends on player skill.  If you make a character whose main skills are non combat, but you don't use them and just upgrade your combat skills, then the game becomes ridiculously easy.  If you make a character whose main skills are non-combat based and you do use them then the game becomes impossible. Increasing the difficulty bar just inversely increases/decreases the amount of damage you and your enemies take.

Fallout 3, whether you hit or not depends entirely on your twitch aiming skills, hence, it's player skill based.

Same with Mass Effect.

All of these games are action games calling themselves RPGs because the combat and pretty much everything else is player skill based rather than character skill based.

I'm playing with a rogue type oblivion character. Marksmen is one of my main skills. I'm level 7. It's sort of hard already. I require heavy use of sneak.

[Chutney]

From what I've heard VATS is only slightly affected by the character's skill, and it's an an idiotic addition anyway that's just another version of bullet time, now with autoaiming.

a VATS like system has been featured in every fallout game, as far as I'm aware. And it does rely on stats. If you have low Perception (I think it was), and low [weapon type] skill, then you're only going to have say a 5% chance of hitting the torso on a fully exposed enemy. With increased skills you increase your chance to hit with VATS.
It's designed to give people who liked the older, more turn-based fallout games to enjoy a more turn-based system. And also be an integral part of the gameplay if you don't want it to be horridly and needlessly difficult.

And really, all the twitch-aiming and player skill in the world won't save you from 2 mirelurks (unless you're wielding a fat man or something). I've tried, oh how I have tried, on so many occasions...

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

From what I've heard VATS is only slightly affected by the character's skill, and it's an an idiotic addition anyway that's just another version of bullet time, now with autoaiming.

a VATS like system has been featured in every fallout game, as far as I'm aware. And it does rely on stats. If you have low Perception (I think it was), and low [weapon type] skill, then you're only going to have say a 5% chance of hitting the torso on a fully exposed enemy. With increased skills you increase your chance to hit with VATS.
It's designed to give people who liked the older, more turn-based fallout games to enjoy a more turn-based system. And also be an integral part of the gameplay if you don't want it to be horridly and needlessly difficult.

And really, all the twitch-aiming and player skill in the world won't save you from 2 mirelurks (unless you're wielding a fat man or something). I've tried, oh how I have tried, on so many occasions...

It's amazing how even this long after the game's release people still believe this.

It's nothing like the older games.  Yes, it's also a nod to the fact that there were targeted shots in the original Fallout games, but it's just that, a nod.  It's not turn-based.  it's a pause button that let's you cue up a bunch of attacks that are then pulled off in bullet time.  In the original Fallout games targeted shots were for characters with high weapon skills to try to damage specific areas of an enemy, which could cause special effects.  Shooting the eyes could blind.  Shooting the head could knock the enemy unconscious.  In Fallout 3 you just press a button to pause and then target everyone's torso, left/right arm, left/right leg, weapon, or head.  And only the last one is even worth bothering with since it does the most damage.  Then you use your AP, the only thing it's used for, to fire off a bunch of rounds in bullet time.

It's designed to show off gratuitous dismemberment in slow motion.

[Zangi]

The fact that games like Mass Effect and Fallout 3 are considered RPGs don't change the fact that you are still using a gun, shooting at people like any normal shooter.  Only that you have other options then shooting.  The core of these games are shooting, not the RPG.

If there was more emphasis on player skill driven melee combat and/or magic/biotic/whatever combat over player skill driven use of guns, then I would be more inclined to consider it closer to RPG/non-shooter... and find your argument more agreeable...

[Ioric Kittencuddler]

Oh boy... The types of weapons being used has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it's a Roleplaying game.  What defines a rolplaying game compared to other games is the fact that character skill is more important than player skill.

[Zangi]

Oh boy... The types of weapons being used has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it's a Roleplaying game.  What defines a rolplaying game compared to other games is the fact that character skill is more important than player skill.

....  I guess we are arguing about different things...  I'm still talking in the vein of Demon's Soul....  being more player skill in compare to stuff like that.

And you are arguing about them being RPGs... ?

Yea...

[Asehujiko]

And really, all the twitch-aiming and player skill in the world won't save you from 2 mirelurks (unless you're wielding a fat man or something). I've tried, oh how I have tried, on so many occasions...

Go into first person mode, crouch, shoot them in the face, get up, spin around and leg it for the nearest thigh high obstacle, jump over it, repeat. Mirelurks have big hitboxes and can't jump, when there's more then one, they start blocking eachother. Don't give them a chance to attack you 2 at a time.

[Someguyo]

Imported this from Yesasia.com and got it a couple of days ago, and I must say, this game is totally awesome. It's very challenging, and you really have to get used to the combat. I've just gotten to my second boss,(After killing your first real boss you can go to whatever place you want) and my total playtime is 10 hours. It may mean that I suck, but that's still a long time. The story is pretty nice, but kind of depressing The game is really long, I think... I haven't really experienced much else than just the first area up to the second boss . Each Dungeon/instance/place/whatever has 4 bosses, and there are 6 dungeons. Plus the Final boss after that.(I think.) Unless you like having it at a slower pace, I suggest you get this game, it's really fun.

[Koja]

Preorder it instead of import, and you get the art book and the audio CD. And access to the US servers.

[Someguyo]

Was too impatient